/ub/ - Überhengst

>>4941
>relent and do another thread
That would be preferable for both conversations.

Allow me to drop the following.

>Moral Relativism (the real heresy and apostasy)
https://odysee.com/@LitteralTruth:b/101500-1440x3200:1
Mirror:
https://www.bitchute.com/video/v35IvIP05zOe/
From a Christian standpoint.

I have a question for Christians since i'm sure some will visit this thread. God knows the future, the bible says this. God also knows who we are before we are born and if we will be saved or not. Prayer really doesn't mean anything, we cannot change Gods will. With that being said, how are we anything more than puppets? The book has already been written.

>>4976
Not all Christians believe in determinism and not all who believe in determinism believe in anything resembling a deity. Many Christians believe in metaphysical free will, and quite a few atheists believe in a deterministic universe.

But to me, it’s kind of silly to think that determinism makes everything pointless. You don’t say “well what happens next doesn’t matter” in a book or a film just because the book is already written and the film has already been shot and edited. You keep watching. And just because all of an actor’s lines are written doesn’t make the actor any less important.

>>4976
Could it be that we do have actual, proper free will, but God already knows what we are going to do with it. It's not contradictory in and of itself.

>>4978
Knowing what we WILL do is contradictory to the idea of free will and brings it back to the idea of determinism.
Knowing what we MIGHT do isn't. If you assume that God is omnipotent, then it's within its powers to know all the infinite possibilities of the future at once.
>>4976
You'll pray, or not pray, regardless if determinism is in action.

>>4982
The concept of time is deterministic. For there to be a "future" where stuff has not yet happened but will happen our actions must be set in stone.
We have free will and we can make our own choices. People can guess at what we might do next. But God knows all and will make perfect guesses.

>>4982
Not if God is outside of time, if he is, then the distinction between what we will do and what we already did is irrelevant, I believe

>>4984
Omnipresence suggests not only being beyond time, but beyond all apparent distinction of possibility. Beyond-quantum, to attempt to wordsmith the idea.

Allow me to drop a little grenade.

>>4987
I wouldnt call that a hand grenade. The Apocrypha, the Pesdepigraphia, the dead sea scrolls, etc. has been established for decades.
Not to be catty, but I would assume the response to be along the lines of "not inspired by God", "Heretical", etc.
>pic related
Im not contesting your point however, and no bully to OP but historically speaking, the modern perception of Christianity and its role in society has only fluorished to the degree it has because groups desiring power come along and decide to engage in revisionist history, and religious history (specifically, the social concept of religious history) observably has little to nothing to do with actual evidence and record.
Christianity is by no means the worst or even an exclusive example, theyre just the most significant contemporary.

>>5177
The Guy Richie movie Revolver comes to mind, and directly references many of the inferences of this video analogously.
Quick question tho, how does this video which only posits a series of perspectives based (loosely) on the Bible (with no citations) on-topic for a bible-study thread, but somehow referencing the findings of the gnostics - a series of perspectives based on devout bible scholars - off topic?
Oh and yeah, quick reminder; the old testament god - Yyaldabaoth - is the entity that is contempraneously referred to as Satan

>>5183
I believe the anon simply wanted to bump the thread to get me to come back and post while trying to have something sort of related to the topic of the Bible. I haven't had a chance to watch it to see if it is related or accurate, but I don't doubt that the title is one its own is supported by the Bible. I will have a full answer to the implications and Biblical evidence or lack thereof for this claim when I have the time. The papers I have to finish writing are taking it out of me.

>>5183
It's David Pawson's perspective by taking the Bible literally all 66 books according to him.
Basically, the devil is an entity (being, 'person' angel), with a mind, and a personality. He has an agenda and a modus operandi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg9A-v2_b10
>>5184
Wishing you well, and had a semi on topic/off-topic post for the thread on hand.

>>5185
Definitely will watch when I beat this deadline. Thanks for sharing.

>>5184
Thank you, but what you believe is irrelevant. Thats been among my salient points; Study does not mean 'assimilate without question, criticism, or analysis', it means to investigate, t3st, and observe with ideally as minimal bias/conviction as possible. That's far and away from what is going on ITT.
>>5185
>taking the bible literally
Well, good luck with that intended, still waiting to hear what denomination
>the devil has a mind, a personality
and ostensibly a body. I dont contest that, Im saying theres a tribe of Christians (who were murdered,... whats that Tyrion Lannister quote about cutting out a mans tongue?) who differentiate between the God of the old testament and the God of the new testament. Im further suggesting that there is more depth to christendom than what has been professed in either backward christian cults 'groups' OR 'established' churches and that all of THIS perspective is literally in/of the bible (spec new testament), depending on interpretation.
But apparently my interpretations of text - literally study of the bible - is irrelevant? Because another guy's interpretation of the same text 'said so'?

>>5187
Giving the quick rundown of the video. One is about ten minutes the other an hour.
My affiliation is what I posted before. I'm not sure what the denomination of Pawson, due to the cursory view.
>>3801
>>4433

>>4941
>>4942
Ah... My bad.

>>5189
Don't sweat it. Content in this thread isn't exactly strict. Just because some anons want to restrict it doesn't mean that no topics outside their preferred should be talked about. Bible study is rather broad, and I would wager that they would prefer a singular thread rather than a dozen Christian threads.

Especially since the devil and the identity of the entity is extremely important to the interpretation of the text as the above anon can attest to. The view of the existence of just this one entity has led to a massively different interpretation. It makes for a perfect study in the Bible.

>>5187
So reading my posts I didn't actually say what denomination I started from Lutheran or Presbyterian or something there was the book(s) and the events. So yeah, didn't know at the time nor do I want to dig too deeply sets off also sorts of warnings. I could be wrong about that, just assume it's lightly read alongside talking vegetables. Sorry about that.
Ah also here's this everyone.
>>5191 →

>>5192
>Lutheran and Presbyterian
Based, that will save me some time in discussion (and volunteer time in researching) of the nuance of the two.
Now if you'd said Methodist, Pentacostal, Episcopalian, or Jehova's Witness,...
And yeah, I previously relented on the Gnostics, but find that their positions are as relevant to bible study as any, in that their positions are derived from studying the bible.
The problem is, the term Christian has become so ubiquitous and universally applied that:
1. Countless people call themselves Christian, on an observably polarized scale of specific beliefs that often conflict and contrast. Ask an Espiscopalian about how permissible faggotry is, for example. Now ask a Baptist. Now ask... you get the point.
2. Religious history is a vastly and woefully neglected area of study for most people, who instead turn to the bible (spec. the Old Testament) for the 'historical record' protip: nothing fails like Bible history
3. Alongside Religious history (among the woefully neglected studies) is the history and etymology of language and meaning. Yes, there are scholars who have done the work translating the words, but that does nothing to aid the reader in comprehension of the words and meaning, and I hope I needn't present evidence of how dismal the average person's comprehension of their native tongue is.
To wit, a devout Catholic and a Luciferian can both honestly and unironically call themselves Christian while claiming the other is false, both citing historical evidence and material resulting with no consenaus.

>>>/vx/162878 →
For a quick summary/rundown for what I consider to be a quick version of the findings of the Gnostics.

>Banning The Bible
>It's Come To This!
>In a shocking experiment, random beachgoers in San Diego, California are asked if they’ll sign a petition to ban the Bible. Their reactions will shock you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XckcMeSueMA
Mirror:
https://www.bitchute.com/video/XckcMeSueMA/

>>5298
Well, I have been putting it off and putting it off, but it looks like I need to come back and make some proper posts and dissect these interpretations that fly in the face of the Biblical narrative as written and instead focus on books that run completely counter to the evidence written by the strongest supporters of Christ. Let's dive in as I work through the night to break it all down.

It will take some time, maybe even several days, but I will first address the Armored Skeptic video, then this one, then I will return to the book of Revelation that I have been neglecting for so long. Despite my breakdown, I doubt anyone will be satisfied, but I will finally be able to put to words my frustrations with this interpretation.

2000 years and kikery never changes

>>5301
Appreciated. Please note, the blond guy is presented purely for information purposesI do not endorse him as any degree of authority on interpretation of said information. Like most, he appears to have gotten caught up in the information as is, rather than using the information to extrapolate the underlying meaning of gnostic teachings.

>>5309
He clarified at the end that it was all supposed to be metaphorical of the conditions they were facing, but the structure still doesn’t make sense if it is metaphorical. I think I’ll actually change my approach to address that one first to rule it out as a legitimate form of a theology as a literal interpretation and an inadequate metaphor as well.

However, crucial information is shared between the two presenters, and both will be addressed in full. I now plan to take a bit longer and make visual aids to my points, otherwise I believe I will not have a focused response and others might gloss over what I am attempting to address.

>>5310
Thats actually not the bit I was referring to. In another video he makes an astonishing statement about how Socialism is 'government-instituted altruism', alongside a few other 'gems' that I would hate for everyone to miss out on.
Again, Im presenting him ONLY for his summaries of Gnosticism.

>>5310
Adittionally, in preparation for your rebuttal, I have to acknowladge an oversight to .uch of my premise.
While the teachings/interpretations of the Gnostics are based largely on the books of the - shall we say approved - Bible, it is also heavily wrighted by the banned/removed/omitted books of the bible.
As such (and Im sure we could debate until the end as to the validity/invalidity, admissibility/inadmissibility, or legitimacy/illegitimacy of either including or omitting such texts, and how that has shaped Christian history and the interpretations across generations without reaching a consensus), I acknowledge that presenting/arguing banned biblical texts is a bit derailing in a thread very conclusively intended to study the bible from an orthodox position. And, I apologize for any outbursts in which I may lose sight of that (not explicit, but close enough) fact in the pursuit of my attempts to illustrate a viewpoint (Gnosticism, not exclusively) that is often and otherwise maligned because its largely not been presented authentically.
I will continue to present counterpoint as is relevant, but I will temper my enthusiasm and keep it on topic to the books/ideas presented.

>>5318
Banned texts, works of Biblical criticism, and otherwise deemed heretical books are all work a look in the Bible study thread. Just know that the ultimate conclusion might not be completely satisfactory as it will ultimately be judged by not only merit, but if the Bible supports the narrative presented.

In the case of Gnosticism, it argues the Bible is completely wrong and the texts they provide are both secret information from the authors or the best guesses at what the authors would have wrote as I don’t think anyone believes that Adam, which they are arguing is a metaphorical entity anyway, wrote a book and it was preserved by people and yet the texts date to the same era as the other works of the Gnostics.

The denial of the Bible will ultimately lead to a stalemate in the texts where one cannot win over the other and the winner would be a combination of logic and trust in one or the other, and my bias will lean to the Bible being true. However, I will still attempt to the best of my ability to view the opposing viewpoint and discuss as many logical conclusions that can be drawn from the text and how it could be true. For an example of my notes so far, the concept that the book is a metaphor falls apart a bit when dealing with the characters from the Bible and then putting them in a completely different story than what is presented in the Bible, becoming a curated place for your own narrative… yet things still do not compute in such cases as the metaphorical implications of the divine mind beings that come down and save a portion of humanity from the Flood outside Noah’s ark.

This makes no literal sense in that should that be the case, why didn’t those beings save Noah and deny the evil god of the material world the leverage for an eternal servant. It also makes no metaphorical sense in that this is a form of inherited racial superiority of a hidden race as the mind beings chose to reject the descendants of the metaphorical Noah, meaning the people that the stories would promote Noah as having, which is larger than the Jewish population, including peoples all over the Middle East, Cyprus, many African lands, possibly Greece, and Russia. From there the Biblical text focuses on the Mediterranean area, but the conclusions of this is that many people could be descendants of Noah as Biblically acknowledged, and if the text is to be fully believe, all people are, then the response is that most people are disposable to the divine mind as only the chosen by divine mind grace are worthy to be kept from the evil god of the material world.

Metaphorically, this might just be an expression of how the world is typically not concerned with matters of the mind and instead worried about the physical, but it logically implies superiority of those that are one with Gnosis and the damnation of those that are not, equating them to a God that hates the world it made and the people therein. Somehow has the potential to be even worse than the most self-righteous of Christians, which is displayed in the presenter concluding not only are Christians wrong, but the founders worship death and suffering and promote it against the wishes of Christ, and those today that follow it are like them in service to this version of God proclaimed to be true.

In my breakdown I will go over as many implications I can possibly over the resulting theology that comes from a God that is actually Satan and how that would have effected a literal history, a Biblical narrative, the world today, and metaphorical considerations to cover my bases. Unfortunately I am a bit pressed for time with other commitments, but I will still work on this and finish it despite the length of time that elapses.

Hey what if "Noah made an ark to get his family and 2 of every animal away from the flood" is a metaphor for "Noah made a boat and left the civilization he knew was destined for societal collapse, and he brought enough animals to eat during the journey"?

>>5321
Shutup Nigel

>>5322
This.

>>5319
I agree with many of your points, and since this is a bit of a preamble I'll wait until your thorough analysis.
I will point out as a caveat though: there are portions of the Bible - mostly (not exclusively) Old Testament - that present historical 'records' that have since been proven impossibly inaccurate. Mostly these pertain to archeological finds and the times/dates of civilizations, but there are many events purported by the Bible that simply could not have occurred at the place, time, or involving the individuals claimed, historically.
What Im saying (and Im NOT one of the 'throw the damn thing out cuz its historically inaccurate) is that one should appreciate that in spite of the MANY truths it conveys, the book cannot be said to be 100% literal and accurate, though I appreciate that your bias leans in that direction.
My bias is toward the idea that Jesus (who/whenever he WAS [cuz he was]) was more akin to what was depicted in the Gospel of Thomas, and that what has become orthodox (at the expense of millennia of genocide of anyone who disagreed, by the church) was and is as political as it was for Constantine to adopt the Christian movement (at the time) to aid him in winning wars and amassing power.
The Gospel of Jesus (nevermind the historical accuracy issues) attempts to portray a scenario in which the individuals in question (mostly the apostles) are without agenda, desire, motivation, or basic human psychology, unless otherwise stated, and the only people ever claimed to be fallible (read: artifice) are the 'bad guys', who themselves are basically cartoonish caricatures.
Not trying to rewrite the story, but the interview with Pilate was especially bad, when at-the-time Roman law is considered (Jews had no supremacy, nor the authority to charge anyone with heresy, and they would have been thrown out of court for trying).
Rambling, Ill stop.
>>5321
Your question is as moronic as this image

>>5324
The reason the court happened was to quell rebellion. The Romans had found Jesus not a threat, but the threat was the Jewish population which had crowded and started chanting to kill Jesus. Thus, throwing out the case was not possible or else the Jews would have started talk about how the government would not dispose of a heretic of both the Jewish order and the throne of Rome. We know a Jewish rebellion did occur just a few decades later, meaning there was good cause to take the case and an attempt was made at appeasing them by releasing Christ and not a murderer, but the crowd decided the reverse.

The reason the Jews couldn't kill anyone was the loss of capital punishment. If they killed without government approval, they could be tried themselves for breaking chain of command with possible rebellious intent. Therefore, it makes sense that they would leverage the religious celebration of the Passover to squeeze by a heresy charge, while the most people were occupying Jerusalem as well, having the most explosive potential to start a rebellion.

There is no other way it could have played out except secret assassination, which was possible, but if ever traced back to them would be their undoing. It isn't like Jesus' entrance and presence in the city was a secret, and there was a religious celebration. Him turning up dead by the people that wanted Him dead would be public knowledge and rumors would reach the authorities.

>>5329
He's right though

>>5328
>Thus, throwing out the case was not possible or else the Jews would have started talk about how the government would not dispose of a heretic of both the Jewish order and the throne of Rome
Except thats false. Jews were not so numerous - even in jerusalem - that they threatened the Roman empire thats absurd. Additionally, Roman law permitted all manner of religious practice and did not view other forms of religion as heretical, so the idea that Romans wefe threatened by Jesus is equally absurd. Pilate, having no impetus to favor, coddle, or go easy on 'the mob' had Roman soldiers at his disposal, and could have had any uppity jews in cages or worse, with a gesture.
The authors of the new testament didnt know Roman law, and the portrayal we are give is - as I said - cartoonish and so absurd that Im surprised no one is seen twirling a mustache.
You may recall this post... I struggle to find it.
Anyway, Ill repost it in the bar.
>>>/sp/5332 →
The point of my posting the video is the citations of Roman law and how it was applied. Romans hardly cared for the jews, who were just one small (comparatively) group in a multi-continental empire. The jews didnt even have VOTING rights.

>>5333
Perhaps you misunderstood. I affirmed the Jews had no right, which is why they were not allowed to carry out an execution. This is why they pressured Romans to do it.

You are absolutely wrong about Jewish concentrations on Passover. We know this from the rebellion that occurred during the Jewish-Roman war of which a quick wiki search revealed:
"According to Josephus, 1.1 million non-combatants died in Jerusalem and 100,000 in Galilee; 97,000 enslaved."
Non-combatants being rebel peasants of course. Even accounting for exaggeration, we learn that "number exceeds the entire pre-siege population of Jerusalem. Many of the casualties were observant Jews from across the world such as Babylon and Egypt who had travelled to Jerusalem wanting to celebrate the yearly Passover but instead got trapped in the chaotic siege". Hmm... it's like a big celebration that brings in a big Jewish population of Jews that might start some shit during a rebellion. Even if we only look at the official combatants at 30,000, that is 30,000 more than nothing if you execute one man, as it is not in the best interests of Roman to have a rebellion when the alternative is just to kill the heretic on the religious celebration and appease the Jewish peasantry until they go back home. It would have been the head of the regional authorities that were put in charge to contain rebellions against the throne. Failing in that manner would cost Rome time, money, and lives. The Jews knew this and applied pressure to have this one trial occur. I know a wiki isn't a great source and the Jews like to boost their casualty count, but it does confirm the celebration brought in enough forces to overwhelm the local guard and more needed to be brought from mainland. This rules out being able to arrest the Jewish authority as that would be seen as a hostile takeover against the agreed terms allowing for their existence and would launch a rebellion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(70_CE)

We know the Roman authorities tried to pass it off to Herod to deal with, but the Pharisees simply returned with a crowd that chanted for the death of the man. To ignore that request would to be sentenced for having to inconvenience Rome with putting down the rebellion in your place as well as divert attention and funds from homeland projects and defense from barbarian invasion. I don't have to know the intricacies of Roman law to know economic factors such as war was not exactly desired, else there would be no regional authority they could have even met with. We can thus conclude that the law had little power in the face of a looming rebellion and pressure was applied to both sides of the conflict which allowed the trial of Jesus to proceed as displayed in Scripture.

>>5335
Based.

>Very few people that are aware of who the GOD of this world really is - David Pawson
>Demon translate to "inferior deity".. Satan is the GOD of this world. He is not the true God.
>David Pawson talk.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/JzPgqeMDr2Cs/
I believe this was posted before.

>>5386
Duuuuuuuuuude
saw this exact image today, felt a compulsion to save/post it but decided, nah

>>5388
Not my meme but I'm glad it is spreading.