It was suggested that I make a new thread dedicated to expanding on this question:
>Well what about the falling rate of profit? Think the reason so many people are putting their bets on communism is they're just hoping something works if capitalism ends up not working--which seems to be the case.
>Someone needs to figure out the logistics no matter what happens in the future. If nationalism, what economic system? If communism, what flavor? If barbarism, how do we power the grain mill? If feudalism, what do we do when that evolves into capitalism again and we're in this situation again but without oil?
Do we have a contingency plan if the capitalism/neoliberal economics thing doesn't work out? How do we do an economic system if profit ends up being on average impossible in the future?
/mlpol/ - My Little Politics
147 replies and 24 files omitted.
Douglas social credit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_credit
>Social credit is a distributive philosophy of political economy developed in the 1920s and 1930s by C. H. Douglas. Douglas attributed economic downturns to discrepancies between the cost of goods and the compensation of the workers who made them. To combat what he saw as a chronic deficiency of purchasing power in the economy, Douglas prescribed government intervention in the form of the issuance of debt-free money directly to consumers or producers (if they sold their product below cost to consumers) in order to combat such discrepancy.[1]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_credit
>Social credit is a distributive philosophy of political economy developed in the 1920s and 1930s by C. H. Douglas. Douglas attributed economic downturns to discrepancies between the cost of goods and the compensation of the workers who made them. To combat what he saw as a chronic deficiency of purchasing power in the economy, Douglas prescribed government intervention in the form of the issuance of debt-free money directly to consumers or producers (if they sold their product below cost to consumers) in order to combat such discrepancy.[1]
>>384890
I'll look into that, found a sorta Kurzgesagt style video series about it: [YouTube] Episode #1: What is the Purpose of the Economy?![]()
I'll look into that, found a sorta Kurzgesagt style video series about it: [YouTube] Episode #1: What is the Purpose of the Economy?
>>384901
You should look into distributism too.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism
>Distributism is an economic theory asserting that the world's productive assets should be widely owned rather than concentrated.[1] Developed in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, distributism was based upon Catholic social teaching principles, especially those of Pope Leo XIII in his encyclical Rerum novarum (1891) and Pope Pius XI in Quadragesimo anno (1931).[2][3][4] It has influenced Anglo Christian Democratic movements,[5][6] and has been recognized as one of many influences on the social market economy.[7][8]
You should look into distributism too.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism
>Distributism is an economic theory asserting that the world's productive assets should be widely owned rather than concentrated.[1] Developed in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, distributism was based upon Catholic social teaching principles, especially those of Pope Leo XIII in his encyclical Rerum novarum (1891) and Pope Pius XI in Quadragesimo anno (1931).[2][3][4] It has influenced Anglo Christian Democratic movements,[5][6] and has been recognized as one of many influences on the social market economy.[7][8]
>>384880
Capitalism is evil because it entails usury and the abolition of morals. We should be invested in "economics" as much as we are invested in destroying those evils.
I dont think most ancaps fully understand the concept of "property" either. Without the state, a property just becomes a territory. What matters though is that they do understand the importance of private ownership and capital. (Please dont chew me out ancaps, I am against the thing called capital-ISM, not capital)
So long as we uphold the importance of the market economy and private property, we are on the right track. And also condemn the elephant in the room, which would be (((lending practices))), the international bankers, and the import of cheap brown labor into white societies
Capitalism is evil because it entails usury and the abolition of morals. We should be invested in "economics" as much as we are invested in destroying those evils.
I dont think most ancaps fully understand the concept of "property" either. Without the state, a property just becomes a territory. What matters though is that they do understand the importance of private ownership and capital. (Please dont chew me out ancaps, I am against the thing called capital-ISM, not capital)
So long as we uphold the importance of the market economy and private property, we are on the right track. And also condemn the elephant in the room, which would be (((lending practices))), the international bankers, and the import of cheap brown labor into white societies
>>384890
Not sure how efficient it will be to calculate the "true cost" of goods and enact price controls. The average man should atleast earn a family wage, whatever it is that supports a man and his family. Women must be removed from the workforce though
Not sure how efficient it will be to calculate the "true cost" of goods and enact price controls. The average man should atleast earn a family wage, whatever it is that supports a man and his family. Women must be removed from the workforce though
>>385087
I've heard of market socialism, so preserving markets--and presumably capital by extension? At least I assume markets and capital are a bundle--outside capitalism seems like something people are trying to figure out.
Do you have a specific system in mind?
I've heard of market socialism, so preserving markets--and presumably capital by extension? At least I assume markets and capital are a bundle--outside capitalism seems like something people are trying to figure out.
Do you have a specific system in mind?
>>385099
I think we need to go on offense against the word "capitalism" while not being anti capital. The reason being is because the term has been hyjacked by neocon boomer inc. We cant use that word to represent our interests. Unless we're reffering strictly to a market economy and private property, even then its not safe.
Instead of coming up with a new economic system, it might be better to just watch the world crash and burn. After all whites already invented the stable structures of economies, from feudalism to modern era. The extreme ends of economics being a result of foreign occupation, and a recipe for foriegn invasion. Capitalism or communism, one is where jews rape everyone financially, the other one is where the lumpenproles rob everyone of their property and possesions.
I think we need to go on offense against the word "capitalism" while not being anti capital. The reason being is because the term has been hyjacked by neocon boomer inc. We cant use that word to represent our interests. Unless we're reffering strictly to a market economy and private property, even then its not safe.
Instead of coming up with a new economic system, it might be better to just watch the world crash and burn. After all whites already invented the stable structures of economies, from feudalism to modern era. The extreme ends of economics being a result of foreign occupation, and a recipe for foriegn invasion. Capitalism or communism, one is where jews rape everyone financially, the other one is where the lumpenproles rob everyone of their property and possesions.
>>385112
So, renaming the Titanic while waiting for it to hit the iceberg? I imagine existing institutions would love that, and we'll likely see a lot of countries try just that, but that's not really what the thread is about. People will continue existing during all that crashing and burning and such, and I'm curious how economies may adapt or emerge going forward in spite of that.
So, renaming the Titanic while waiting for it to hit the iceberg? I imagine existing institutions would love that, and we'll likely see a lot of countries try just that, but that's not really what the thread is about. People will continue existing during all that crashing and burning and such, and I'm curious how economies may adapt or emerge going forward in spite of that.
>>385124
Fair enough. I was just ranting. If jews and indians take over we will all live in pods and it will be like something out of a horror film
Fair enough. I was just ranting. If jews and indians take over we will all live in pods and it will be like something out of a horror film
>>385126
>Centralisation filter
I think it's less that centralisation kills itself with maladaptive policy and more that centralisation goes hand-in-hand with a self-destructive drive for efficiency and an increasing degree of risk aversion. Advancement beyond a certain point ceases to be efficient for a society, so it chooses stagnation over risk, consumes the necessary resources to escape its gravity well subsisting, then subsists itself back to a pre-industrial state as necessary resources to maintain a post-industrial society are likewise consumed. We can see this occuring now, advancements are being made but none of it is being applied seriously, we're essentially spinning our wheels waiting for a breakthrough that may never come while the global population continues to rise.
For example, we're running out of helium, that shit doesn't come back and synthesising it is wildly energy intensive. It is a critical resource in the manufacture of computational components. The technocrats may have a point, as much as I hate to say it, yet giving command of society over to a bunch of out-of-touch eccentrics is not an option.
Whatever social structure is necessary to survive this filter demands, ironically, an extreme degree of greed baked into its substrate, it merely need be purposed towards survival rather than subsistence.
[Read more] >Centralisation filter
I think it's less that centralisation kills itself with maladaptive policy and more that centralisation goes hand-in-hand with a self-destructive drive for efficiency and an increasing degree of risk aversion. Advancement beyond a certain point ceases to be efficient for a society, so it chooses stagnation over risk, consumes the necessary resources to escape its gravity well subsisting, then subsists itself back to a pre-industrial state as necessary resources to maintain a post-industrial society are likewise consumed. We can see this occuring now, advancements are being made but none of it is being applied seriously, we're essentially spinning our wheels waiting for a breakthrough that may never come while the global population continues to rise.
For example, we're running out of helium, that shit doesn't come back and synthesising it is wildly energy intensive. It is a critical resource in the manufacture of computational components. The technocrats may have a point, as much as I hate to say it, yet giving command of society over to a bunch of out-of-touch eccentrics is not an option.
Whatever social structure is necessary to survive this filter demands, ironically, an extreme degree of greed baked into its substrate, it merely need be purposed towards survival rather than subsistence.
>>384880
>Well what about the falling rate of profit?
Increasing gov’t regulations + decreasing genetic ability to succeed; i.e (genetic predisposition for) intelligence, impulse control, planning etc all going down to due dysgenic breeding.
>Well what about the falling rate of profit?
Increasing gov’t regulations + decreasing genetic ability to succeed; i.e (genetic predisposition for) intelligence, impulse control, planning etc all going down to due dysgenic breeding.
>>385097
>The average man should at least earn a family wage
What happens when the population degenerates due to lower quality people outbreeding those of higher quality, causes the “average man” to become above average? We’d need an objective measure for the “average man” (standard man), and a method to measure and compare an individual from the population to this “standard man”.
>The average man should at least earn a family wage
What happens when the population degenerates due to lower quality people outbreeding those of higher quality, causes the “average man” to become above average? We’d need an objective measure for the “average man” (standard man), and a method to measure and compare an individual from the population to this “standard man”.
>>385087
>evil because it entails usury
Whats the issue with two adults making a deal with each other? If A is happy to pay interest to B in return for B giving them a loan, what's the damage?
>I dont think most ancaps fully understand the concept of "property" either. Without the state, a property just becomes a territory.
Specifically;
>Without the state, a property just becomes a territory.
Is this statement trying to encapsulate that your property is whatever you can use violence or threat of it to keep hold of? If so, I agree, but I don't see a principle difference between property defined with or without a state. There's just a different source of violence.
>evil because it entails usury
Whats the issue with two adults making a deal with each other? If A is happy to pay interest to B in return for B giving them a loan, what's the damage?
>I dont think most ancaps fully understand the concept of "property" either. Without the state, a property just becomes a territory.
Specifically;
>Without the state, a property just becomes a territory.
Is this statement trying to encapsulate that your property is whatever you can use violence or threat of it to keep hold of? If so, I agree, but I don't see a principle difference between property defined with or without a state. There's just a different source of violence.
>>385167
You know how Europeans got as smart as they did? (After the ice age already making them smart) Having the father choose who his daughter marries. For a very very long time, getting a girl was as "simple" as mastering a craft and proving your good behavior and ability to provide to a father, who would entrust you with his daughter. (Who'd then belong to you after marriage) Why are there so many Smiths? Because blacksmiths made bank in England, that's why. They had an easy time getting wives, even if they were autists who just wanted to tinker with their forge all day.
Patriarchy is all the eugenics you need. It ensures the competent, disciplined and well-behaved men get to breed while the failures become outcasts. The moment women started being allowed to make their own choices regarding a mate is the moment divorces spiked, birth rates started to fall, and dysgenics to start. No need for draconian eugenics law that would make everyone mad. Just let dad choose who gets his girl. That already functions as eugenics.
You know how Europeans got as smart as they did? (After the ice age already making them smart) Having the father choose who his daughter marries. For a very very long time, getting a girl was as "simple" as mastering a craft and proving your good behavior and ability to provide to a father, who would entrust you with his daughter. (Who'd then belong to you after marriage) Why are there so many Smiths? Because blacksmiths made bank in England, that's why. They had an easy time getting wives, even if they were autists who just wanted to tinker with their forge all day.
Patriarchy is all the eugenics you need. It ensures the competent, disciplined and well-behaved men get to breed while the failures become outcasts. The moment women started being allowed to make their own choices regarding a mate is the moment divorces spiked, birth rates started to fall, and dysgenics to start. No need for draconian eugenics law that would make everyone mad. Just let dad choose who gets his girl. That already functions as eugenics.
>>385087
>Capitalism is evil because it entails usury and the abolition of morals
lack of coercion in human interaction (trade instead of violent takeover of property) is obviously moral
>Capitalism is evil because it entails usury and the abolition of morals
lack of coercion in human interaction (trade instead of violent takeover of property) is obviously moral
>>385087
>Capitalism is evil because it entails usury
Usury is not a mandatory component of capitalism, try again.
>Capitalism is evil because it entails usury
Usury is not a mandatory component of capitalism, try again.
>>385171
>Patriarchy is all the eugenics you need.
I don't think it's strong enough to combat the naturally dysgenic pressures of complex civilization. Technology like sewers, trade networks, healthcare etc reduce child mortality greatly and dramatically lower what degree of intelligence (etc) is needed to survive; pressures selecting for bad traits. The result is stupid people are able to have lots of children (that they otherwise wouldn't), of which all survive to breeding age (which naturally would've died as infants). Worse is there are technologies which create selection pressures actively working against good traits, e.g. all forms of contraception; a person of high impulse control will remember to put on a condom, someone with low impulse control will go in raw; an intelligent person will read and adhere to the instructions for using contraceptive pills correctly, a stupid person will take one pill right before action.
When you consider how many selection pressures are acting for bad (dysgenic) traits, and operating against good (eugenic) traits, I think you will realize how powerfully dysgenic modern complex civilization really is.
I think one of the few eugenics systems that could work is free-market genetic engineering. Any eugenics system will have an uphill battle, from both technological and cultural implementation.
[Read more] >Patriarchy is all the eugenics you need.
I don't think it's strong enough to combat the naturally dysgenic pressures of complex civilization. Technology like sewers, trade networks, healthcare etc reduce child mortality greatly and dramatically lower what degree of intelligence (etc) is needed to survive; pressures selecting for bad traits. The result is stupid people are able to have lots of children (that they otherwise wouldn't), of which all survive to breeding age (which naturally would've died as infants). Worse is there are technologies which create selection pressures actively working against good traits, e.g. all forms of contraception; a person of high impulse control will remember to put on a condom, someone with low impulse control will go in raw; an intelligent person will read and adhere to the instructions for using contraceptive pills correctly, a stupid person will take one pill right before action.
When you consider how many selection pressures are acting for bad (dysgenic) traits, and operating against good (eugenic) traits, I think you will realize how powerfully dysgenic modern complex civilization really is.
I think one of the few eugenics systems that could work is free-market genetic engineering. Any eugenics system will have an uphill battle, from both technological and cultural implementation.
>>384914
you do have leslie fair retard. communism is just ancap wet dream of making it illegal for the proles and mcslaves to not buy their products after they buy out the entire monopoly board.
you do have leslie fair retard. communism is just ancap wet dream of making it illegal for the proles and mcslaves to not buy their products after they buy out the entire monopoly board.
>>385185
>you do have leslie fair retard
I can't create some items without a loicense
I can't deny service to """protected class"""es
I can't produce certain products "thanks" to patents
>communism is just ancap wet dream of making it illegal for the proles and mcslaves to not buy their products after they buy out the entire monopoly board.
oh you're actually retarded
>you do have leslie fair retard
I can't create some items without a loicense
I can't deny service to """protected class"""es
I can't produce certain products "thanks" to patents
>communism is just ancap wet dream of making it illegal for the proles and mcslaves to not buy their products after they buy out the entire monopoly board.
oh you're actually retarded
I bought a cured and cooked gammon joint and 6 bottles of cider for a tenner, a third if my hourly wage. I doubt I'd get the same amount under communism.
>>385167
Its up to you to justify why all essential full time 40 hr week jobs dont deserve a family pay, given a worker has shown himself to be reliable and efficient? Thats what I mean by average man, maybe I should use different wording?
>>385168
Private property without usury is keynesianism? Sure thats national socialism, Hitlers economic policy. Since the existence of the state relies on taking, it should give back to the people. Thats what Hitler did with child tax credits, the most effective way for the state to give back. If you had a child in nazi germany, the government payed off 1/4 of your home mortgage. So if you had 4 children, the government fully payed off your house. All of this only makes sense to do. Everything else Hitler did in the economy was basically laissez-faire efficient. A lot of lolberts complain that he was "socialist" but not really in the colloquial sense only in name
>>385170
You can see why the Catholic Church and many others have been against usury, before and even after the vatican bank got taken over by the Rothschilds.
Economic collapse 101:
banks loans at high interest, bank secretly knows the debt never gets paid off, bank runs out of money, government bails out bank by printing more money. Money supply increases, increasing inflation and concentration of wealth into the pockets of the rich. Thats why usury has been banned so many times in the past
>>385172
>>385173
Thanks for ignoring the context in what I said after. Capitalism it its very basic meaning considers capital over labor. Thats the idea that lets usury florish
[Read more] Its up to you to justify why all essential full time 40 hr week jobs dont deserve a family pay, given a worker has shown himself to be reliable and efficient? Thats what I mean by average man, maybe I should use different wording?
>>385168
Private property without usury is keynesianism? Sure thats national socialism, Hitlers economic policy. Since the existence of the state relies on taking, it should give back to the people. Thats what Hitler did with child tax credits, the most effective way for the state to give back. If you had a child in nazi germany, the government payed off 1/4 of your home mortgage. So if you had 4 children, the government fully payed off your house. All of this only makes sense to do. Everything else Hitler did in the economy was basically laissez-faire efficient. A lot of lolberts complain that he was "socialist" but not really in the colloquial sense only in name
>>385170
You can see why the Catholic Church and many others have been against usury, before and even after the vatican bank got taken over by the Rothschilds.
Economic collapse 101:
banks loans at high interest, bank secretly knows the debt never gets paid off, bank runs out of money, government bails out bank by printing more money. Money supply increases, increasing inflation and concentration of wealth into the pockets of the rich. Thats why usury has been banned so many times in the past
>>385172
>>385173
Thanks for ignoring the context in what I said after. Capitalism it its very basic meaning considers capital over labor. Thats the idea that lets usury florish
>>385267
>Capitalism [in] its very basic meaning considers capital over labor. Thats the idea that lets usury florish
do you believe in labor theory of value? Just asking
>Capitalism [in] its very basic meaning considers capital over labor. Thats the idea that lets usury florish
do you believe in labor theory of value? Just asking
>>385267
>Everything else Hitler did in the economy was basically laissez-faire efficient
oh didn't notice this, you're outright retarded
>Everything else Hitler did in the economy was basically laissez-faire efficient
oh didn't notice this, you're outright retarded
>>385273
Not that anon, but the labor theory of value is true. Labor is what creates value even Adam Smith agreeded on this. You can argue that demand sets the price of a good, but demand cannot create value.
Not that anon, but the labor theory of value is true. Labor is what creates value even Adam Smith agreeded on this. You can argue that demand sets the price of a good, but demand cannot create value.
>>385167
Seems to me like any economy would be able to avoid the plot of idiocracy from happening, so that could be it's own thread.
The role of regulations in an economy is relevant though since different economic systems would employ those differently, and some regulations may have different effects depending on the economy they're employed in.
Seems to me like any economy would be able to avoid the plot of idiocracy from happening, so that could be it's own thread.
The role of regulations in an economy is relevant though since different economic systems would employ those differently, and some regulations may have different effects depending on the economy they're employed in.
forgot about le flag, gonna continue posting with it
>>385279
Value is subjective because wants and desires of human beings are subjective
products with low "labor value" can be expensive: Many works of art are sold for millions not because they were difficult to make, but because people want them. /v/idya items with the only "labor" put into them being a click of a mouse button on a lootbox can sell for thousands. Certain items have a boosted value because they're made/advertised by certain people (see CWC's "official merch").
Products with high "labor value" can be sold at a loss: video game consoles, for example, can be sold at a loss by their producers because games for them (sold at a rather high value) make more profit than the hardware (and one can't use his console without buying games)
if you still deny subject theory of value then answer this: if "everything is valued by labor" then who values said labor?
>>385284
his love for private property was so high that he ceased his citizens' private property to get foreign citizens' private property kek
[Read more] >>385279
Value is subjective because wants and desires of human beings are subjective
products with low "labor value" can be expensive: Many works of art are sold for millions not because they were difficult to make, but because people want them. /v/idya items with the only "labor" put into them being a click of a mouse button on a lootbox can sell for thousands. Certain items have a boosted value because they're made/advertised by certain people (see CWC's "official merch").
Products with high "labor value" can be sold at a loss: video game consoles, for example, can be sold at a loss by their producers because games for them (sold at a rather high value) make more profit than the hardware (and one can't use his console without buying games)
if you still deny subject theory of value then answer this: if "everything is valued by labor" then who values said labor?
>>385284
his love for private property was so high that he ceased his citizens' private property to get foreign citizens' private property kek
>>385301
I'm not saying there isn't a subjective element I'm saying only labor can create value. Labor creates video games, computers, houses, ect and extracts the raw resources necessary to create those things. Subjective desires do not create anything. Labor is what creates value.
I'm not saying there isn't a subjective element I'm saying only labor can create value. Labor creates video games, computers, houses, ect and extracts the raw resources necessary to create those things. Subjective desires do not create anything. Labor is what creates value.
>>385303
following this logic one can't pay the other to stop doing something ("I'll pay you $100 to shut up") because "service" provided here has no labor
following this logic one can't pay the other to stop doing something ("I'll pay you $100 to shut up") because "service" provided here has no labor
>>385313
Wouldn't the labor be the talking beforehand, to put the other party in a situation where they would want it to cease?
Wouldn't the labor be the talking beforehand, to put the other party in a situation where they would want it to cease?
>>385331
what if said action isn't labor but just presence? (I'll give you money just to move out of my neighborhood)
also your phrase that
>Labor is what creates value.
doesn't work with natural resources
if, for example, a plot of land that I own has a tree present and my neighbor asks me if he can buy it and cut it, this raises a question: where does the value come from?
according to you value comes from nature planting it (and this raises a question about "nature" being a actual acting subject or not)
according to me value comes from my neighbor's desire for wood
what if said action isn't labor but just presence? (I'll give you money just to move out of my neighborhood)
also your phrase that
>Labor is what creates value.
doesn't work with natural resources
if, for example, a plot of land that I own has a tree present and my neighbor asks me if he can buy it and cut it, this raises a question: where does the value come from?
according to you value comes from nature planting it (and this raises a question about "nature" being a actual acting subject or not)
according to me value comes from my neighbor's desire for wood
>>385339
Has anyone tried a conversion theory of value?
>thesis: value created by labor
<antithesis: some things are valuable before the labor
>synthesis: the opportunity to do labor and follow through of it creates value
So one might value being able to focus to work on their Gundam model kits, but their neighbor is noisy, so they pay them to move out.
So someone needs to turn trees into wood, so they buy logs that can be made into wood.
Has someone done that yet? Is that new?
Has anyone tried a conversion theory of value?
>thesis: value created by labor
<antithesis: some things are valuable before the labor
>synthesis: the opportunity to do labor and follow through of it creates value
So one might value being able to focus to work on their Gundam model kits, but their neighbor is noisy, so they pay them to move out.
So someone needs to turn trees into wood, so they buy logs that can be made into wood.
Has someone done that yet? Is that new?
>>385350
>the opportunity to do labor and follow through of it creates value
how exactly expensive anime figurines help one do labor?
>the opportunity to do labor and follow through of it creates value
how exactly expensive anime figurines help one do labor?
>>385313
It would certainly take effort on my part to keep quiet if someone was paying me $100 not to say anything as they said something stupid. That is a form of labor.
It would certainly take effort on my part to keep quiet if someone was paying me $100 not to say anything as they said something stupid. That is a form of labor.
>>385339
The value came from nature and the labor needed to process nature into something your neighbor wanted. The desire for wood did not CREATE anything.
The value came from nature and the labor needed to process nature into something your neighbor wanted. The desire for wood did not CREATE anything.
>>385364
>The value came from nature and the labor needed to process nature into something your neighbor wanted
my neighbor wants a tree that I never watered or really interacted with
>The value came from nature and the labor needed to process nature into something your neighbor wanted
my neighbor wants a tree that I never watered or really interacted with
>>385358
The labor is the assembly of the figurine. If that's insufficient then chose any other focus intensive labor, like programming.
If someone is watching this thread as I fumble to quote the right post, yes I'm caffinated and thus not sober.
The labor is the assembly of the figurine. If that's insufficient then chose any other focus intensive labor, like programming.
If someone is watching this thread as I fumble to quote the right post, yes I'm caffinated and thus not sober.
>>385372
With the tree example you have to take the tree's own labor in growing into account, so the tree wouldn't count as a natural resource, since organisms artificially create themselves.
Something like a boulder would be more fitting for this example, or even a chunk of a mountain, since that's just physics before any labor goes into it.
With the tree example you have to take the tree's own labor in growing into account, so the tree wouldn't count as a natural resource, since organisms artificially create themselves.
Something like a boulder would be more fitting for this example, or even a chunk of a mountain, since that's just physics before any labor goes into it.
>>385372
by force of nature
and if you want to argue about "nature's labor" then we go back to my previous post
>(and this raises a question about "nature" being a actual acting subject or not)
>>385374
>The labor is the assembly of the figurine
wait, so the value of the figurine comes from the opportunity to do labor (more firgurines)? Is this your point?
>yes I'm caffinated and thus not sober.
how much cups, anon?
>>385382
oh you actually want to argue about fucking plants doing labor
by force of nature
and if you want to argue about "nature's labor" then we go back to my previous post
>(and this raises a question about "nature" being a actual acting subject or not)
>>385374
>The labor is the assembly of the figurine
wait, so the value of the figurine comes from the opportunity to do labor (more firgurines)? Is this your point?
>yes I'm caffinated and thus not sober.
how much cups, anon?
>>385382
oh you actually want to argue about fucking plants doing labor
>>385384
Nature is part of the equation sure, but nature didn't chop that tree down or process it. What force did that?
Nature is part of the equation sure, but nature didn't chop that tree down or process it. What force did that?
>>385385
>Nature is part of the equation sure, but nature didn't chop that tree down or process it. What force did that?
neighbor wants a tree
he offers me $N for the tree
I either accept N dollars or we settle for M bucks for the tree
he chops down his newly bought property
labor comes after the purchase of the item
>Nature is part of the equation sure, but nature didn't chop that tree down or process it. What force did that?
neighbor wants a tree
he offers me $N for the tree
I either accept N dollars or we settle for M bucks for the tree
he chops down his newly bought property
labor comes after the purchase of the item
>>385384
>wait, so the value of the figurine comes from the opportunity to do labor (more firgurines)? Is this your point?
Yeah exactly. Like who would buy a prebuilt lego kit? (well I imagine someone, but the fun of lego is the building)
>how much cups, anon?
Probably too much, my mug holds maybe 2/3's of a 4 cup measuring beaker, and I've had 2 mugs... Oh god, I think I'll just have water the rest of the day.
>oh you actually want to argue about fucking plants doing labor
Well idk at what point does organic activity start to do labor that can count toward the economy? I might be overabstracting (or deabstracting?) but I thought that's worth mentioning.
>wait, so the value of the figurine comes from the opportunity to do labor (more firgurines)? Is this your point?
Yeah exactly. Like who would buy a prebuilt lego kit? (well I imagine someone, but the fun of lego is the building)
>how much cups, anon?
Probably too much, my mug holds maybe 2/3's of a 4 cup measuring beaker, and I've had 2 mugs... Oh god, I think I'll just have water the rest of the day.
>oh you actually want to argue about fucking plants doing labor
Well idk at what point does organic activity start to do labor that can count toward the economy? I might be overabstracting (or deabstracting?) but I thought that's worth mentioning.
>>385386
What does it matter that the labor came after the purchase? Nothing of value was created until after the labor.
"Wealth is matter which has been consciously and intelligently transformed from a condition in which it is less to a condition in which it is more serviceable to a human need."
What does it matter that the labor came after the purchase? Nothing of value was created until after the labor.
"Wealth is matter which has been consciously and intelligently transformed from a condition in which it is less to a condition in which it is more serviceable to a human need."
>>385388
>Yeah exactly. Like who would buy a prebuilt lego kit? (well I imagine someone, but the fun of lego is the building)
the statement
>value of X comes from other X
is circular. Where's the beginning?
>Probably too much, my mug holds maybe 2/3's of a 4 cup measuring beaker, and I've had 2 mugs... Oh god, I think I'll just have water the rest of the day.
Anon, how are you still able to post?
>Well idk at what point does organic activity start to do labor that can count toward the economy?
Human / "intelligent creatures" because we're on a pony board because only a mind can do purposeful action
>>385389
>What does it matter that the labor came after the purchase? Nothing of value was created until after the labor.
tree had value because a man desired it, not because someday someone might've cut it down
[Read more] >Yeah exactly. Like who would buy a prebuilt lego kit? (well I imagine someone, but the fun of lego is the building)
the statement
>value of X comes from other X
is circular. Where's the beginning?
>Probably too much, my mug holds maybe 2/3's of a 4 cup measuring beaker, and I've had 2 mugs... Oh god, I think I'll just have water the rest of the day.
Anon, how are you still able to post?
>Well idk at what point does organic activity start to do labor that can count toward the economy?
Human / "intelligent creatures" because we're on a pony board because only a mind can do purposeful action
>>385389
>What does it matter that the labor came after the purchase? Nothing of value was created until after the labor.
tree had value because a man desired it, not because someday someone might've cut it down
>>385388
also yeah
>(well I imagine someone, but the fun of lego is the building)
someone might value prebuilt legos more than normal lego sets because different people have different sets of values
also yeah
>(well I imagine someone, but the fun of lego is the building)
someone might value prebuilt legos more than normal lego sets because different people have different sets of values
>>385399
>Where's the beginning?
Well if I'm going to count the growth of a tree as labor, then that would be whatever conditions created life in the first place. If I don't count that, not sure.
>Anon, how are you still able to post?
I've probably built a tolerance. You could probably use my blood to make a poison dart that gives someone a caffine overdose, especially during college season.
>because only a mind can do purposeful action
That's workable.
>someone might value prebuilt legos more than normal lego sets because different people have different sets of values
Fair, though one could argue the presence of prebuilt figurines set the vibe for them, or that it's good for mental health to be surrounded by art, which in turn is conductive to labor, or any number of things.
I'll keep a notepad with me and when I think of more examples I'll see how they hold up to this line of thought.
[Read more] >Where's the beginning?
Well if I'm going to count the growth of a tree as labor, then that would be whatever conditions created life in the first place. If I don't count that, not sure.
>Anon, how are you still able to post?
I've probably built a tolerance. You could probably use my blood to make a poison dart that gives someone a caffine overdose, especially during college season.
>because only a mind can do purposeful action
That's workable.
>someone might value prebuilt legos more than normal lego sets because different people have different sets of values
Fair, though one could argue the presence of prebuilt figurines set the vibe for them, or that it's good for mental health to be surrounded by art, which in turn is conductive to labor, or any number of things.
I'll keep a notepad with me and when I think of more examples I'll see how they hold up to this line of thought.
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