/mlpol/ - My Little Politics

Will we get to see riots no matter who wins?

I do hope that whatever comes out of this unwarranted election is that Spain will be able to retain its integrity and will not bow to the collective incompetence of yellow bellied seperatists, if necessary by use of military force. Spain deserves better than being ruled by weaklings. A country is to be governed by strength, not by pity.

>>97238
I’m getting nationalist Spain vs rebublican Spain vibes for some reason. I know it hasn’t come to that yet, but are we perhaps getting a small repeat of our history? Are we about to see another war for control of Spain one day? Will this rise to more nationalism? Will WWIII happen? Maybe not, but I find this extremely fascinating.

>>97262
Yes, division during the republic era was frequent. From the Catalans, Basques, and all else.

Results are coming in, so far it seems like a very close tie, with the independentist having the 47% and the constitutionalists the 43%. 97,67% of the votes have been counted.

The party Podemos is not being listed as either constitutionalist nor pro independence, but make no mistake, they are pro independence. So in reality the independentist won 57-43%

>>97241
You will see protest, and maybe some small antifa group burning some garbage can if the constituionalist win, but that's about it.

>>97253
You are wrong on one thing, Spain is not governed by cowards.
You see, when we had the transition from dictatorship to democracy in 1978, the people in charge were a bunch of traitors against the general Franco, alongside a few traitors to democracy, under the supervision of a king traitor to his oaths, traitor to his father and traitor to his fatherland to pillage and distribute the wealth of Spain.
People might say our rules are actually descendent from the old regime, some others might call them extreme left, but in reality they are just a bunch of thiefs that just want things to stay as they are so they can loot as long as possible. This includes both federal and local politicians from both Catalonia and Spain.
They are traitors, not weaklings.
I wish we were ruled by cowards with a good heart.

>>97262
Indeed. For the last decade people have been trying to revive the spirit from civil war, and remembering the cruel victims (of the republican side) of the civil war. We even have a law since 2007 that grants the exhumations of various pits with the remains of "the repressed" during Franco's age.
Basically digging pits of people that were buried in mass during the civil war of the republican side, so their families can mourn them and bury them properly. 40% of youth umeployement and this is the programs that are decided to spend money on.

And you are right that they are trying to bring back the old spirit of the civil war. Actually, I made a post in the last thread about them buying ammunition and weapons enough to start a civil war. They also mention Franco and civil war victims of the republican side non stop.

I had a feeling the independentist were going to win, but I'm not entirely sure what is going to happen now. A war definitely not, nobody has the weapons for it. I hope for more nationalism, but our politicians, media and others are trying to kill it as fast as they can.
Sad for them, since you've taken the redpil, there's no coming back.
And even if the people that woke up were not enough, this crisis is far from over. People in a few months will wonder why nothing has happened, or if something happened, why the government did nothing to stop it.

Likewise, actual independentist will become angry if their government does nothing to separate. Which is the most likely scenario as these people are thieves, not heroes of war.

And if they declare independence and the government does do something, we're back to square one, just with more social unrest. I cannot fathom a positive scenario for any of the parties involved in this mess.

>>97280
Meanwhile, here in America, we get on the mainstream news: Trump said this, someone wants that, some people died due to this. This is the real important stuff right now, real historical impact. Yet nothing but the same from media at large. I bet most Americans have no clue what is happening there.

Regardless, I wish you the best. A positive may yet come out from this further down the line.

>>97280
>The media everywhere is going to proclaim that constitutionalists won

Maybe I should take a break from internet, tv, and papers for a few days.

< And even if the people that woke up were not enough, this crisis is far from over. People in a few months will wonder why nothing has happened, or if something happened, why the government did nothing to stop it.
nah man, faking bureaucratic hurdles is the easiest and the first thing in anyones playbook. They're going to have negotiations, and in a few months or maybe after a year, when the plebians become impatient, there's going to be some mudslinging about the other party slowing things down unnecessarily.

< And if they declare independence and the government does do something, we're back to square one, just with more social unrest. I cannot fathom a positive scenario for any of the parties involved in this mess.
What do you mean by square one? What kind of unrest do you expect?

>>97289
>The media everywhere is going to proclaim that constitutionalists won

That's odd. Not even our media, except from some outlets, consider Podemos a constitutionalists party. And they should be getting the info from our media. Maybe they got it from one of the most biased media outlets.

>They're going to have negotiations, and in a few months or maybe after a year, when the plebians become impatient, there's going to be some mudslinging about the other party slowing things down unnecessarily.

Thing is, we already had "negociations", which resulted in our government illegally ceasing the government of the region. And even so, the nationalist would consider this a lost as soon as it happens, because first, those guys are criminals by our criminal code (actually, all politicians are criminals by our criminal code, but Catalans are guilty of more severe crimes) negotiating the breaking of the country, and second, even consider negotiating would be seen as a lost, since the nationalist have nothing to win from that argument, because they have nothing to win. I do agree they want to slow this down tho. Preferably until next elections and the politicians that end their turn can flee the country with the pockets filled. I just doubt any short of dialogue will sit well with the electorate of the constitutionalists.

>What do you mean by square one? What kind of unrest do you expect?

By square one I mean that, if they declare independence, and our government decides to do something about it, such as cease the government like last time, then Catalonia will go back to have an unelected government, and our government will push elections for whatever date it feels like again, and we will go back to new elections like today, only now people will feel more alienated and more pissed off, which will increase Catalonia's social fracture. And I think the social fracture in Catalonia is just as bad, if not worse, than the social fracture of Democrats and Republicans in the US

>>97393
I would consider CatComú-Podem as an Secessionist party, so I would say they won 78 seats, but hey, who am I to argue.

Here are some statistics like the vote per territory, the number of seats each party got, and comparisons to last election.

The big cities voted mostly constitutionalists, with some parts of them voting secessionist, whereas the smaller regions voted basically full secessionist.

Now, with a president exiled with a search order from the Supreme Court and the other still in jail, I am curious about what is going to happen now. Will keep updating if something worthwhile happens, for now we just caught Puigdemont saying "Spain has a huge shitstorm" in a random camera, and our president says he will make an announcement at 14:00h to value the results.

So Spain is in on course for a civil war?

>>97425
Highly doubtful. Don't underestimate the passivity of the West.
The only reason a civil war would ever break out in the West, is if there is a major economic collapse rivaling or even surpassing the Great Depression.

Quick things regarding the vote.
There has been some changes in the votes after an international recount.

The constitutional party Cs loses a seat to the constitutional party of PP. That is all. Also, there will be future recounts

Now, the response of our president, basically:
>Says these were peaceful elections with guarantees
>Congratulates the party with the most seats (Cs) for winning the election
>Is a bad thing the secessionist got absolute majority tho
>If the government wants the business and tourism to come back, they must abide by the rule of law
>I hope we open a phase of dialog to create growth an employment
>We reestablished equality with the 155
>Is just a matter of time the secessionist lose support.
>The courts will decide and he will abide.
>The legislation that has been decided is 4 years long, so there won't be an early election, next one is in 2020.
>He will speak with whoever is elected and takes the seat of president.
>He's also sad that they got a result of only 4, and that they were expecting more.
>We have to abide by the rule of law, the 155 was an exceptional situation and required exceptional measures.
>Merry Christmas everyone!

So he lost the elections he summoned after 2 months of taken over the government and put a pseudo dictatorship in the region with appointed officers by a mere 4 seats.
Who could've seen that one coming?
All the votes went for Cs, which are not really much better. They are just whores that will say anything the public wants to hear to get elected, no matter the flip flops. But they will at least try to pretend they care about the public. I cannot wait for these people to fall down into irrelevancy and many of their members in jail for their crimes.

On other news, everyone in the Catalan side is celebrating the victory of the Catalan republic over the Spanish monarchy.

No official government has been formed yet, but some of the parties are showing concern over having a government with a president exiled from the country. Nevertheless, any other person for the job seems unlikely to be chosen.

Puigdemont has requested the president to hold a meeting anywhere but the Spanish state unless "Democracy and the results of the ballots is respected"
He also demands the "end of the 155, the end of the police occupation of Catalonia, the end of the economic intervention of the Catalan Government, the restitution of Catalan institutions, and the freedom of political prisoners". Although that last one should be asked to the judges, not the government.

He says these are the only premises under which a dialogue would be possible. Else, he does not discard the unilateral route.

Basically, after this pause of two months, we're back to October, with our government wasting time and losing legitimacy.

Guess when they have formed an official government, the second season of the Spanish circus will reopen again.

>>97425
Catalonia does not have an army, and are one of the most lefty places in Spain. So it is very unlikely for the population of Catalonia to start an armed conflict.
Talking about the police force, I made a comment on the previous thread about how they tried to buy a large cargo of weapons last December.
Don't know if this still works with a dead thread but, >>82619 →

If there is a violent conflict in Spain due to this, I would not expect it to leave Catalonia. This election had a lot of partisanship and people voting against the parties they hate, unlike an actual referendum of independence (that thing from October was not an actual referendum).

From the data I've been able to gather, the pro-anti sides are around 50-50 of the population. I cannot say for sure which one is bigger, but what I can say is that during these few months, or maybe even years before the time, the Catalan society has suffered a social fracture, similar to that in America, where both sides of the spectrum can't talk to each other. Maybe even more severe than the American one.
So my guess, for whatever is worth, is that if there was to be a civil war, it would be Catalan vs Catalan.

So, just a heads up for what has been going on in Catalan Boogaloo.

But first, a brief summary of how the new government will be created.
After the elections of the 21D, There's a limit for forming a government, the 23rd of January.
At this point they must have the government created, to have the first debate of the investiture the 6th of February, after which the president will be officially voted, for which a normal majority is enough to finish the process.
If he doesn't gain a majority another vote will take place 48 hours later.
If that vote also doesn't work, there will be an extra time of 2 months to find the president for the new government.
If all of that fails, government is disbanded and new elections will happen 54 days later around May/June.

After the elections of the 21D, the parties elected need to form a coalition government, for which they need an absolute majority of the seats.
Problem being is, JxCat (Puigdemont, former president as the head), the secessionist party with more seats, and ERC (Junqueras, former vice-president as the head), the second biggest, have been experiencing some trouble regrading the election of the new president.
To be precise, the rules of the Catalan parliament do not allow for a president to be absent during his official appointment.
That plus also some regulations regarding being present during debates, turn up to the parliament whenever called, and some other similar requirements.
Basically, a presidency by teleconference is not viable.
Also, in the case that Junqueras gets invested, instead of Puigdemont, he would need to request the judge's permission to go collect the title and problem solved. Thing is, there's no guarantee for him to receive permission from the judge.

I will skip over how the negotiations have been, that include gems such as former president of Catalonia, now in jail for fraud, calling the current government blind ideologues, and for the secessionist to start to change the term of "political prisoners" to "hostages"
There's also the issue of dissidence spreading trough the ranks of the secessionist, either for fear of prison, or the new factor of Tabarnia, that is making more and more members renounce the unilateral route.

And for last, we have Tabarnia (2nd pic), which is basically a "movement" that has been growing for the past few months in different web platforms, where the regions most in favor of Spain, would secede from Catalonia to form another autonomous community (Spanish version of province), and their arguments are the exact same arguments the Catalan independentist used with Spain
Funny thing is that, most of the regions of Tabarnia are actually the industrial powerhouse of the country, whereas the rest are the agricultural and rural areas.
Some of the arguments include:
>"Nobody will be sued for speaking Spanish in their business"
>"Barcelona pays to the Catalan government 32% more of what it receives. We will stop financing the empty airports of Lérida and Gerona and we will lower the taxes in Barcelona"
>"Barcelona needs 45k votes per seat, whereas Lérida needs 20k per seat, Barcelona should have 20 more seats so the secessionist would be a minority"
>"Catalonia does not let us vote to secede, therefore Catalonia is fascist and oppressive"
>"Catalonia steals from us"

And that's about it, nothing much has happened, but that should be a heads up for how everything looks at the moment. Next update around the 23rd~

>>106261
Thanks for the update. This has really dropped off the radar in the US.

We got some interesting news in the recent days.
This monday Puigdemont actually left the country of Belgium and went to Denmark to do a press conference.
This decision is more complex than it might seem when you consider the following:
-Spain issued a few months ago an international arrest order for the ex-President, yet it was retired the 5th of December, leaving no actual international search order in place.
-He cannot be invested as the president if he's not physically present at the Parliament on the day of the vote.
-The ex-Councillors that are now in prison have been given permission to delegate their vote since their absence from the chamber of Parliament is not due to a decision they took from their own free will.
So basically this was an excuse to get the "totalitarian Spanish state" to "arrest him against their will" and when in jail, claim the same benefit as the rest of his companions and be invested as president during the vote.
So the judge simply didn't issue the European arrest order and he went to Denmark, and did an interview in there as planned.
In actual English too! Which means I for one do not have to translate hours of conferences and you don't have to take my word for it! For those who don't want to watch the 105 minute long video, I'll give a chronology and some brief generalities about the video below.

[YouTube] Directo: Conferencia de Carles Puigdemont desde Copenhague [Embed]

>8:15 Puigdemont remembers the horrors of the tragedy of the first of October, also, some dick sucking towards Denmark.
>32:30 Some guy from Denmark questions Puigdemont whether democracy is just voting or if it also includes rule of law, and constitudes the demos of a country.
>47:00 Puigdemont responds to the inquires
>1:00:00 Some lady ask Puigdemont some questions regrading the whole event, that sound like they came from both Nationalist Spain and European dick-sucking Spain. It goes on from quite some time question after question, called Puigdemont and the Catalans spoiled and wanted to get rid of all the poor.
>1:13:20 Puigdemont responds to the questions, also talks briefly about the European Union in relation to the proposed independent Catalonia.
>1:32:57 Puigdemont gets asked 3 questions, specify in more detail about the European Union and independent Catalonia, how in the world is he planning to run the government when he's in Denmark before the voting takes place, and what would this mean for a possible domino effect with the rest of the territories of Spain.

So yeah, he's didn't get his way and will have so settle with just eating lobster and drinking champagne, tasting different restaurants from across Europe with the help of the Spanish taxpayer's pockets.

And another thing I would like to mention was about the documents discovered recently.
I've mention some before but I will more details about how they were acquired in the first place.
On the 26 of October, while the Puigdemont was still on Catalonia and the government was enjoying their last hours of power, 2 patrols of the Catalan police guarding an unidentified blue van filled with boxes and documents with destination set on the incinerator in San Adrian del Besós.
But at the entrance of the building, 20 agents and 5 vans of the National Police Intervention Unit were waiting for them. They stop the Catalans and demand the handing of the documents and the digital copy of the files. The Catalans refuse and try to force their way in. There are some moments of tension and some of the Catalans are about to draw their weapons, but in the end they are all identified and detained. 3 hours later, the judge Lamela authorize the seizing of the documents.
The documents were being investigated since soon after that and then and in December, among the documents to burn there were documents that contained information about the following and the espionage since 2015 of members of Catalan Civil Society, the Police Syndicate of Catalonia (including the 15y.old son of the president) and private individuals, parties, and institutions. There's also proof that at least 3m € that were given to Catalonia from the Estate to pay off its debs were used instead to advance the secessionist cause.
And a more recent document that was going to be burned described a note from the USA about a possible thread of a terrorist attack in Las Ramblas that was sent this 25 of May.
There are still videos in youtube where the the media, police, and politicians from Catalonia vehemently denied that this document even existed.
Despite all of this, the government has neither showed the full content of these documents to the citizens, identify the ones responsible for the creation of these documents, not the ones that order their destruction, nor dismantle the spying departments, nor remove the war equipment the police acquired last year, nor remove some of the capabilities of the Catalan police and nor give some more capabilities to the National Police.
Also, I would like to add that during all this process of having an imposed government in Catalonia, barely any of the new appointed dictators even bothered to show up and even less do anything. Figures.

One more detail, the secessionist might have 70 seats, as >>97393 mentioned, but they need to actually be there to vote, or in prison to delegate the vote. They cannot do so while they are on holidays exiled. If you remove the ones at Brussels, they don't technically have a majority.


>>106465
No wonder, with all the crap going on in the USA the last couple of weeks, and with how slow and uninteresting this is in comparison, I would be surprise if they give this more than a small mention from time to time in a few of the news outlets.
Thanks for the response. I will keep updating in case some more of interest shows up. Expect some new scheme to happen in order to get Puigdemont invested.

>>110161
So Mr P can't be invested because he doesn't want to risk coming to spain and he can't get arrested outside of spain.
Why not just get arrested in spain?
Who are they going to bring forth if not him?

So the documents would show the catalan government has been pretending they are independent even before the referendum, and in a way that shows they don't actually know how to be indipendent?

>I can break these cuffs
>t. catalan

Well.. We've just lived some interesting events in recent days here in Spain…
I'll try to summarize this clusterfuck as best as I can.

The new president of the Catalan parliament decided the plenary session to invest the president would be celebrated yesterday, on the 30th of January, at 15h, with Puigdemont being the presumed candidate.
This… is not actually legal by the rules of the Catalan Parliament, the president needs to be present to actually be invested, but hey, illegality hasn't stopped them before.
The president of the Catalan parliament went to Brussels not too long ago to discuss with Puigdemont the investment of him as president, however, the candidate was not officially announced, and it was reported that the candidate would be decided on the day of the vote, thus, there was no legal basis for them to shut it down before he was invested.

However, due to some legal mumbo jumbo, (Puigdemont refused his delegated vote, and so did the people outside, which removed any petitions that the judicial branch could nullify, and also the decision whether the exiled seats can delegate the vote or not will be resolved the same day of the meeting, just in case)
To solve this legal block, our constitutional court outright declared void the investment for Tuesday were it to be carried on without the presence of the individual invested for president. Not only that, the document from the Constitutional Court mentions Puigdemont by name and says he needs to come to Spain AND receive the approval of a judge before being invested. They also added 10 days maximum for everyone, from Puigdemont, to the members of the Catalan parliament and the central government, to present allegations. When that time has gone by, they will voice their resolution about the mysterious petition the government made them before.
At the same time, Puigdemont and his party presented another petition in which the requested to abolish the preemptive measures that bind him from being invested. There are also some rumors that say he's traveling back to Spain in secret, and was to show up during the plenary session.


And after all of that we get to yesterday, the day of the prophecy. ANC had called for people to "assemble in mass in a peaceful manner, most of the parties had reached an agreement to invest Puigdemont even if it had to be telematically, the Catalan Police surrounds the parliament… and then, at 10am, the president of the parliament suspends the plenary session for another day, leaving the process just before the republicans reached the so long desired orgasm of independence.
The response has been mixed in the secessionist sphere. Some agree we should invest a candidate that doesn't have judicial consequences, while others told the president he was a fcking idiot and to grow some balls and celebrate the plenary session, and that they are a very strong and independent government body that doesn't need no judicial approval.
The president said in an interview that he called Puigdemont a few times before announcing the postponement of the session and he did not answer.
He also said during his public appearance that the Estate Government and the Constitutional Tribunal are going against the rights of legitimately elected officials.

Around 1200 people showed up for the assembly in the parliament, some wearing mask of the runaway president.
https://twitter.com/CUP_AMB/status/958350220298989568 [Embed]
With screams such as "Freedom for political prisoners", "Puigdemont is our president", "Do not touch TV3", "Out of the parliament squats", "Out with the Spanish Justice" among others.
Some even broke the police cordon and stood in front of the parliament to defend the sovereignty to elect their own president at the word of "you invest the president or we occupy the parliament"
The ANC had to call off the protest because "our movement is a non-violent movement"
Some pro independence politicians went there to share their sympathy and frustration with the protesters, but they were booed with the chant of "the people choose, the government obeys"
https://twitter.com/albertbotran/status/958364205106810880 [Embed]
https://twitter.com/zalduariz/status/958359078077681667 [Embed]

These events have brought some animosity from the rest of the secessionist and after expressing their disappointment they have stated they will not collaborate with the Puigdemont parties anymore and elect their own candidate.

Some messages from Puigdemont to another deputy have been leaked and posted in the MSM:
>"The plan from the Moncloa triumphs, I just hope is true and that thanks to this all the people from jail can get out because if not the ridicule will live on for the ages"
>"I guess you already know this is over. Our people have sacrificed us, at least I was. You will be my Councillors (I hope and wish) but I have already been sacrificed"
>"This has expired, and I will dedicate my life to self defense"

To which Puigdemont responds this in twitter:
>"I am a journalist and I have always understood that there are limits, such as privacy, that should never be breached. I am human and there are moments in which I also doubt. I am also the president and I will not back down, for respect, gratitude and compromise with the citizens and the country. We continue!"
https://twitter.com/KRLS/status/958661707303399424 [Embed]


Whether this is a plot with the MSM outlet that released it and are just pretending or if it is real, I don't know, but so far, this has turned twitter into a gold mine.

>>110438
>Why not just get arrested in Spain?
As I understand it, is because the vote can only be delegated if his absence is not due to his free will, but is due to an imposed decision. And from what the judge said him being arrested and him surrendering to the police have different connotations in the legal framework. Not entirely sure why, since he still cannot show up in the chamber regardless of his will.
And they have a few candidates that do not have international recognition but are still well known here.
>So the documents would show the catalan government has been pretending they are independent even before the referendum, and in a way that shows they don't actually know how to be indipendent?
Those are just pages and pages of corruption from all the institutions of Catalonia. I think hiding evidence, misuse of public funds, and police breaking the law are criminal offenses no matter the government.

(dam character limit)