Normie who doesn't use this site. Far left, sometimes even post left. AMA I'll be nice
/mlpol/ - My Little Politics
Archived thread
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Why have you faggots come here? Do you even like horse pussy?
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>Normie
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>>35425
>ama
Cancer.
Why are you here, what brought you here, and why did you bother making this thread?
>ama
Cancer.
Why are you here, what brought you here, and why did you bother making this thread?
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>>35425
How do you not find ponies insanely cute? How do you live through life thinking everything is oppression?
How do you not find ponies insanely cute? How do you live through life thinking everything is oppression?
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>>35435
Nothing wrong w ponies. Not everything is opression, but considering we live within like, a society, that has like, structure, it's important to recognise how that structure operates and effects people.
Nothing wrong w ponies. Not everything is opression, but considering we live within like, a society, that has like, structure, it's important to recognise how that structure operates and effects people.
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mods, can you mark this guy as the first summerfag of /mlpol/?
>>35438
If it makes you feel any better, it could be because you identified yourself as being both a normie, and new
If it makes you feel any better, it could be because you identified yourself as being both a normie, and new
>>35438
Ama's were always cancer.
If you want to interact in good faith, you should try lurking moar, and become familiar with our board first.
You didn't answer any of my questions either; they were serious.
Ama's were always cancer.
If you want to interact in good faith, you should try lurking moar, and become familiar with our board first.
You didn't answer any of my questions either; they were serious.
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>>35440
>considering we live within like, a society, that has like, structure, it's important to recognise how that structure operates and effects people.
This is true, although I usually disagree with the ways lefties propose addressing them.
>considering we live within like, a society, that has like, structure, it's important to recognise how that structure operates and effects people.
This is true, although I usually disagree with the ways lefties propose addressing them.
>>35446
Will do. To answer your q: I genuinely want to learn more political thought than just left wing political thought, and also considered that maybe some of y'all were thinking the same thing.
Will do. To answer your q: I genuinely want to learn more political thought than just left wing political thought, and also considered that maybe some of y'all were thinking the same thing.
>>35447
Idk, I take influences from lenninism, Anarchism, post leftism, mutualism, Marxism, primitivism, transhumanism the whole spectrum. I haven't found one ideology that fits me perfectly.
Idk, I take influences from lenninism, Anarchism, post leftism, mutualism, Marxism, primitivism, transhumanism the whole spectrum. I haven't found one ideology that fits me perfectly.
How did you find this place?
>>35453
Last time some leftie showed up here, he brought massively annying offensive on our art.
As a person who spent hours upon hours defending, why should I spare a second of consideration for any of you?
Last time some leftie showed up here, he brought massively annying offensive on our art.
As a person who spent hours upon hours defending, why should I spare a second of consideration for any of you?
>>35449
If you honestly want to understand rightwing thinking, I very strongly recommend Jonathan Haidt's "The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Divided over Politics and Religion." Jonathan Haidt was a professor of Moral Psychology at the University of Virginia, who self identifies as a liberal and started his investigation into moral psychology so as to help the Democrats with Rheyoric. However, his explanation for human moral psychology, and of political psychology, is the best I've ever seen. I think he gets much right in his explaination of social conservatism. If you are coming from a Marxist philosophical background, I recommend Alasdair McInyre's "After Virtue" for an explaination of communitarianism, which can also help to understand nationalism and social conservatism, especially hierarchies and social roles. McIntyre is coming from a Marxist background, so I think it should be easy to relate to. Do you have any corresponding recommended readings?
If you honestly want to understand rightwing thinking, I very strongly recommend Jonathan Haidt's "The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Divided over Politics and Religion." Jonathan Haidt was a professor of Moral Psychology at the University of Virginia, who self identifies as a liberal and started his investigation into moral psychology so as to help the Democrats with Rheyoric. However, his explanation for human moral psychology, and of political psychology, is the best I've ever seen. I think he gets much right in his explaination of social conservatism. If you are coming from a Marxist philosophical background, I recommend Alasdair McInyre's "After Virtue" for an explaination of communitarianism, which can also help to understand nationalism and social conservatism, especially hierarchies and social roles. McIntyre is coming from a Marxist background, so I think it should be easy to relate to. Do you have any corresponding recommended readings?
>>35453
>Pixel canvas if I'm being honest
Were you one of those antifa fags who came here to spy on us? If so, tell your friends to fuck off, and leave our art alone. Go paint your own ponies.
>Pixel canvas if I'm being honest
Were you one of those antifa fags who came here to spy on us? If so, tell your friends to fuck off, and leave our art alone. Go paint your own ponies.
>>35458
The Slovak anon is referring to an application known as "Pixel Cancas," a website where you lay a pixel a minute and build art as a community. mlpol has built two banners on pixel canvas. Both have been under attack for the past several days from communists and Antifa, and many people have been defending against these attacks
The Slovak anon is referring to an application known as "Pixel Cancas," a website where you lay a pixel a minute and build art as a community. mlpol has built two banners on pixel canvas. Both have been under attack for the past several days from communists and Antifa, and many people have been defending against these attacks
>>35459
Thanks, I'll put both of those on my list! For far left ideology, I'd recommend Marxs Capital, which is like his keystone text, and from their you could read anarchist authors like The Invisible Committee, leninist authors like, predictably, Lenin, and anti imperialist reads like Settlers by j Sakai. Thanks for the good faith :)
Thanks, I'll put both of those on my list! For far left ideology, I'd recommend Marxs Capital, which is like his keystone text, and from their you could read anarchist authors like The Invisible Committee, leninist authors like, predictably, Lenin, and anti imperialist reads like Settlers by j Sakai. Thanks for the good faith :)
>>35463
>I do interact with antifa alot, though.
How do you guys even organize? I want to learn more about them.
>I do interact with antifa alot, though.
How do you guys even organize? I want to learn more about them.
>>35464
Antifa isn't a group, it's an ideology. Most of the events antifa participates in are spontaneously and uncentrally organised. There are groups whose main platform is antifa, but they all operate differently.
Antifa isn't a group, it's an ideology. Most of the events antifa participates in are spontaneously and uncentrally organised. There are groups whose main platform is antifa, but they all operate differently.
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>>35462
Ill be semi nice but tell your friends to please leave our stuff alone. Weather you know or not but you have violated multiple boards, sites and random artworks just to put your shitty flag up instead of making something to be proud of yourself.
Now since its related I'm curious to what you actually think of personal property and letting people do their own thing?
Ill be semi nice but tell your friends to please leave our stuff alone. Weather you know or not but you have violated multiple boards, sites and random artworks just to put your shitty flag up instead of making something to be proud of yourself.
Now since its related I'm curious to what you actually think of personal property and letting people do their own thing?
>>35468
Property is an interesting conundrum because it's seen as a freedom popularly, but practically can be the opposite. Land, for example. The freedom to own land is the freedom to deny others the freedom to act on that land.
Property is an interesting conundrum because it's seen as a freedom popularly, but practically can be the opposite. Land, for example. The freedom to own land is the freedom to deny others the freedom to act on that land.
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I love you mods
>>35458
Fine, I am just gonna say that your are pulling stuff out of your ass.
>Nah, I just saw ur banner and decided I'd visit. I do interact with antifa alot, though.
You expect me to believe that you didn't start shitting up our art or reporting the "evil nazees" taking over the internet to your friends the second you saw it?
>>35465
>Antifa isn't a group, it's an ideology. Most of the events antifa participates in are spontaneously and uncentrally organised. There are groups whose main platform is antifa, but they all operate differently.
Then you must be hell of a lot more active than I thought considering how many times you allied with jewish elite conspirators against legitimate goverment of America.
I haven't yet have a single positive experience with your lot.
Fine, I am just gonna say that your are pulling stuff out of your ass.
>Nah, I just saw ur banner and decided I'd visit. I do interact with antifa alot, though.
You expect me to believe that you didn't start shitting up our art or reporting the "evil nazees" taking over the internet to your friends the second you saw it?
>>35465
>Antifa isn't a group, it's an ideology. Most of the events antifa participates in are spontaneously and uncentrally organised. There are groups whose main platform is antifa, but they all operate differently.
Then you must be hell of a lot more active than I thought considering how many times you allied with jewish elite conspirators against legitimate goverment of America.
I haven't yet have a single positive experience with your lot.
>>35472
Lol, again I'm super new here so I wasn't aware mods could/would do that. I'd suggest searching out some groups whose platform is antifa, and contacting them through their public channels. Beware: alot of them might be mean. You know how politics is :/
Lol, again I'm super new here so I wasn't aware mods could/would do that. I'd suggest searching out some groups whose platform is antifa, and contacting them through their public channels. Beware: alot of them might be mean. You know how politics is :/
>>35470
>flag
MODS ARE GODS
I could understand that with things like Lords in medieval Europe but that's not how it works these days. Today I will work hard and save up wealth so that I can make a trade for some land to do with what I want. Do you have something against that?
Also curious do you work and what job if so?
>flag
MODS ARE GODS
I could understand that with things like Lords in medieval Europe but that's not how it works these days. Today I will work hard and save up wealth so that I can make a trade for some land to do with what I want. Do you have something against that?
Also curious do you work and what job if so?
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>>35463
I've noticed a lot of people on the left, particularly on the far left, tend to dissociate with those on the right, thinking they are evil or otherwise not good company. What do you think of those on the right? What do you think of such a tendency to disassociate with those you disagree with politically?
I've noticed a lot of people on the left, particularly on the far left, tend to dissociate with those on the right, thinking they are evil or otherwise not good company. What do you think of those on the right? What do you think of such a tendency to disassociate with those you disagree with politically?
>>35479
Nonetheless, you have no freedom to occupy any land but the land you own. I'd recommend a read of marx's Capital if you want the left position on the subject. I work as a martial arts and self defense instructor.
Nonetheless, you have no freedom to occupy any land but the land you own. I'd recommend a read of marx's Capital if you want the left position on the subject. I work as a martial arts and self defense instructor.
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>>35481
I myself am somewhat new to /pol/ culture, and I'm not a Nazi, but as best as I can tell, "the Jews" are sort of like /pol/'s version of the left's "white males." They are a small minority that manages somehow to oppress the majority and control almost everything. But I think the Slovakian is mostly agree because he thinks you are associated with the people attacking mlpol's art on Pixel Canvas
I myself am somewhat new to /pol/ culture, and I'm not a Nazi, but as best as I can tell, "the Jews" are sort of like /pol/'s version of the left's "white males." They are a small minority that manages somehow to oppress the majority and control almost everything. But I think the Slovakian is mostly agree because he thinks you are associated with the people attacking mlpol's art on Pixel Canvas
>>35483
I think discussion in good faith is important, but because we live in a society where ideas translate to policy it inevitable that some conflict between ideas will result, see: purging of leftists by Hitler, purging of righties by stalin
I think discussion in good faith is important, but because we live in a society where ideas translate to policy it inevitable that some conflict between ideas will result, see: purging of leftists by Hitler, purging of righties by stalin
>>35481
I don't have the sources on me right now so everything I say is just a claim but its kinda simple.
Deep state, mainstream media, Hillary and director Commie, they kept going against Trump even after the inauguration. They were completely biased.
And of course, antifa saw this as a chance to get being anarchist while having moral high ground(when they don't).
Its been long time clear for me that people who you ally with are just another authortitative oppressors. Its literally nightmare for anarchists and yet you fight for their agenda. You are damn luck Hillary lost or you'd never get to protest anything unless elites sanction it.
You are just the same like T_D, if not even worse.
I don't have the sources on me right now so everything I say is just a claim but its kinda simple.
Deep state, mainstream media, Hillary and director Commie, they kept going against Trump even after the inauguration. They were completely biased.
And of course, antifa saw this as a chance to get being anarchist while having moral high ground(when they don't).
Its been long time clear for me that people who you ally with are just another authortitative oppressors. Its literally nightmare for anarchists and yet you fight for their agenda. You are damn luck Hillary lost or you'd never get to protest anything unless elites sanction it.
You are just the same like T_D, if not even worse.
>>35490
A common misconception I think. Yknow how the far right hates the so called "cuckservatives"? Hillary is the same thing for us. Legit every leftist I know hates Hillary and liberals.
A common misconception I think. Yknow how the far right hates the so called "cuckservatives"? Hillary is the same thing for us. Legit every leftist I know hates Hillary and liberals.
>>35491
I love guns dude. The leftist position is to arm the working class, disarm the ruling class, if ur interested. I personally don't carry bc I don't think I'm well trained enough to do it safely yet, my main focus is hand to hand and weapons of opportunity
I love guns dude. The leftist position is to arm the working class, disarm the ruling class, if ur interested. I personally don't carry bc I don't think I'm well trained enough to do it safely yet, my main focus is hand to hand and weapons of opportunity
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>>35496
when you can't even converse with leftie visitor because his friends keep shitting up your art all the while visitor acts as a good guy.
Just, fuck you man.
>common misconception
Next you are going to tell me that your people don't break everything that isn't their way either. Common fucking misconception.
antifags are intesfying their attacks this very moment. You lot can only convince people of your ideology with trickery. Your ancestorial jewish masters taught you well.
http://pixelcanvas.io/@-186,663
Look at this fucking shit people.
when you can't even converse with leftie visitor because his friends keep shitting up your art all the while visitor acts as a good guy.
Just, fuck you man.
>common misconception
Next you are going to tell me that your people don't break everything that isn't their way either. Common fucking misconception.
antifags are intesfying their attacks this very moment. You lot can only convince people of your ideology with trickery. Your ancestorial jewish masters taught you well.
http://pixelcanvas.io/@-186,663
Look at this fucking shit people.
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>>35497
Why is it always "ruling class" or "elites" and not kikes with you people? We all know who you're talking about.
Why is it always "ruling class" or "elites" and not kikes with you people? We all know who you're talking about.
>>35504
they aren't allowed to name their jewish masters… they are ok with it and therefore inherently cucked
they aren't allowed to name their jewish masters… they are ok with it and therefore inherently cucked
>>35486
>Nonetheless, you have no freedom to occupy any land but the land you own.
I dont see your point, this is my line of thought. My understanding and from what your buddys shout all the time is that you are going to tred on me and my private property.
>I work as a martial arts and self defense instructor.
At least that is a skilled respectable craft but do you have any experience working hard labor for shit with real working class people?
>Nonetheless, you have no freedom to occupy any land but the land you own.
I dont see your point, this is my line of thought. My understanding and from what your buddys shout all the time is that you are going to tred on me and my private property.
>I work as a martial arts and self defense instructor.
At least that is a skilled respectable craft but do you have any experience working hard labor for shit with real working class people?
>>35504
The left doesn't view it the same way as the right in a critical way. The ruling class isn't an intentionally manipulative group of individuals, it's a class defined by economic position.
The left doesn't view it the same way as the right in a critical way. The ruling class isn't an intentionally manipulative group of individuals, it's a class defined by economic position.
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>>35489
>purging of leftists by Hitler
>purging of righties by stalin
Socialism is the word you're looking for
>purging of leftists by Hitler
>purging of righties by stalin
Socialism is the word you're looking for
>>35501
Antifa doesn't physically opose the far right because they're in political disagreement, but because they consider some of the activities the far right carries out to be a physical threat.
Antifa doesn't physically opose the far right because they're in political disagreement, but because they consider some of the activities the far right carries out to be a physical threat.
>>35511
Jesus fucking Christ can you be any more vague than this?
Your political correctness level is off the charts.
Jesus fucking Christ can you be any more vague than this?
Your political correctness level is off the charts.
>>35506
Oh yeah, I also have worked in agriculture and food service and I'm going back into food service soon bc I need the money
Oh yeah, I also have worked in agriculture and food service and I'm going back into food service soon bc I need the money
>>35497
>arm the working class
Nigger your flag was American so what the fuck is stopping them from getting guns? If we wanted to we could over throw them over right now unless they nuked themselves. Problem is we dont give a shit about people that cant take care of themselves.
No joke saw a tinder profile today like this
>Commnuist
>also sorta homeless
>an actor
Antifags are not working class, most of them are failed college faggots from middle to upper class familys with no real world experience and would eat them selves alive if put in a survival situation.
>arm the working class
Nigger your flag was American so what the fuck is stopping them from getting guns? If we wanted to we could over throw them over right now unless they nuked themselves. Problem is we dont give a shit about people that cant take care of themselves.
No joke saw a tinder profile today like this
>Commnuist
>also sorta homeless
>an actor
Antifags are not working class, most of them are failed college faggots from middle to upper class familys with no real world experience and would eat them selves alive if put in a survival situation.
Does nobody care that antifags are shittng up the art that people most dedicated to /mlpol/ and people from /mlp/ spent hours to create and even more hours to defend?
No help? Who wants to help? Or you would rather listen to leftie spilling most vague politically correct neutral speeches he can get? This thread taught me nothing about lefties and OP provided zero sources or citations.
Why are you still here?
No help? Who wants to help? Or you would rather listen to leftie spilling most vague politically correct neutral speeches he can get? This thread taught me nothing about lefties and OP provided zero sources or citations.
Why are you still here?
>>35512
My apologies, I'm not trying to be vague. I'll give an example, when antifa stopped Milo from speaking at Berkeley, Milo had on his speaking agenda the names of several transgender students who he wanted to bring into the public eye for purposes of harassment. Another example, the defacing of mosques and Jewish graves by some members of the far right. Antifa isn't opposed to people having divers political thought, but they are opposed to political action that brings about harm to wide groups of people.
My apologies, I'm not trying to be vague. I'll give an example, when antifa stopped Milo from speaking at Berkeley, Milo had on his speaking agenda the names of several transgender students who he wanted to bring into the public eye for purposes of harassment. Another example, the defacing of mosques and Jewish graves by some members of the far right. Antifa isn't opposed to people having divers political thought, but they are opposed to political action that brings about harm to wide groups of people.
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>>35459
Haidts perspective on the foundations of morality was an eye opener for me as a liberal (libertarian in freedomspeak), it made me realize that both "the left" and "the right" have very different ways of thinking from how I/we see things.
>>35425
What the hell is "post left"?
How do you see the greens / green left? I was listening to a podcast the other day where an author was making the argument that greens are anything but progressive, and living within our means as a way of saving the environment would be pretty much the same thing as austerity politics for the economy. I'm curious if one can still make an argument for technology, progress and the future in general with people on the other side.
Haidts perspective on the foundations of morality was an eye opener for me as a liberal (libertarian in freedomspeak), it made me realize that both "the left" and "the right" have very different ways of thinking from how I/we see things.
>>35425
What the hell is "post left"?
How do you see the greens / green left? I was listening to a podcast the other day where an author was making the argument that greens are anything but progressive, and living within our means as a way of saving the environment would be pretty much the same thing as austerity politics for the economy. I'm curious if one can still make an argument for technology, progress and the future in general with people on the other side.
>>35528
Post leftists agree with leftists on what the problems are, but disagree on the solutions. I'd recommend The Conjure House as a post leftist source. Max Stirners The Ego and it's Own is a big post left text. Also Crimethincs "your politics are boring as fuck".
Could you be more specific on what you mean by "green left"
Post leftists agree with leftists on what the problems are, but disagree on the solutions. I'd recommend The Conjure House as a post leftist source. Max Stirners The Ego and it's Own is a big post left text. Also Crimethincs "your politics are boring as fuck".
Could you be more specific on what you mean by "green left"
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>>35521
I care about it since I helped make that when it was just flutters. Its just so time consuming and hard to keep up with, as well as taking away from this board. Its obvious that these assholes have no regard for anybody else so while they cant vandalize real peoples property without getting shot they just shit up pixel art online.
Also
>ledddit
and this >>35531
I care about it since I helped make that when it was just flutters. Its just so time consuming and hard to keep up with, as well as taking away from this board. Its obvious that these assholes have no regard for anybody else so while they cant vandalize real peoples property without getting shot they just shit up pixel art online.
Also
>ledddit
and this >>35531
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>>35533
Greens mostly align themselves with the left, and the left is pretty quick to take ideas from the greens on board, in Europe you'll see red-green coalition governments but never a blue-green one. I just meant people in that general area.
Also dubs checked.
Greens mostly align themselves with the left, and the left is pretty quick to take ideas from the greens on board, in Europe you'll see red-green coalition governments but never a blue-green one. I just meant people in that general area.
Also dubs checked.
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>>35511
a Physical threat? Like what? Talking in public!? I think all that pot and drug use is making you see things that aren't there.
I don't see mobs of right wing people assaulting random people in the street who are wearing American flags. If you are fighting for the people, why are you fighting the people you stupid cucks? You should be attacking those in power if you think violence is an answer here. Which it's not btw. Fucking moron
a Physical threat? Like what? Talking in public!? I think all that pot and drug use is making you see things that aren't there.
I don't see mobs of right wing people assaulting random people in the street who are wearing American flags. If you are fighting for the people, why are you fighting the people you stupid cucks? You should be attacking those in power if you think violence is an answer here. Which it's not btw. Fucking moron
>>35546
IGD has an article out there called "the problem with peaceful protestors" I believe. I'd recommend it.
IGD has an article out there called "the problem with peaceful protestors" I believe. I'd recommend it.
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>>35547
I gave you the benefit of the doubt but no you are just another complete fucking loser faggot. If one of your kind ever sets foot on my land you will be drawn and quartered in the middle of the woods.
I gave you the benefit of the doubt but no you are just another complete fucking loser faggot. If one of your kind ever sets foot on my land you will be drawn and quartered in the middle of the woods.
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>>35425
>Far left
>Normie
I don't think there are many ways left for you to become even more cancer. Even if you tried.
>Far left
>Normie
I don't think there are many ways left for you to become even more cancer. Even if you tried.
>>35560
they only give shit to erase swastikas
commies are fine apparently
we are in underdog position again
they only give shit to erase swastikas
commies are fine apparently
we are in underdog position again
>>35550
Green party and environmentalists in general. The ecologically minded leftists would be probably be a fit for the "green left" I suppose.
To clarify the question, I get the sense that people around that point in the political landscape generally think that "big business" or industry is bad, and everything should be small scale and people should live in harmony with nature. You could make the argument that economic development, technology and industry are making things better for the working class - mechanized agriculture means less labor intensitive work, economic growth means people can afford a higher standard of living, that sort of thing - but that line of reasoning seems completely alien to what I see on the left today.
Green party and environmentalists in general. The ecologically minded leftists would be probably be a fit for the "green left" I suppose.
To clarify the question, I get the sense that people around that point in the political landscape generally think that "big business" or industry is bad, and everything should be small scale and people should live in harmony with nature. You could make the argument that economic development, technology and industry are making things better for the working class - mechanized agriculture means less labor intensitive work, economic growth means people can afford a higher standard of living, that sort of thing - but that line of reasoning seems completely alien to what I see on the left today.
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>>35547
>go read "x" so i don't have to explain my views
Want me to list a bunch of articles for you to go read while we're at it? fuck off.
Explain what "you" think about assaulting peaceful protesters, not what your ideology thinks in an article written by some asshole with a Frankfurt degree. I know it's hard for a leftist to think for themselves, but just try it.
Last I checked you were here for you.
>go read "x" so i don't have to explain my views
Want me to list a bunch of articles for you to go read while we're at it? fuck off.
Explain what "you" think about assaulting peaceful protesters, not what your ideology thinks in an article written by some asshole with a Frankfurt degree. I know it's hard for a leftist to think for themselves, but just try it.
Last I checked you were here for you.
>>35573
Friend, I value this discussion alot, but it seems like perhaps I'm a little unwanted here. Probably gonna get banned soon. Is there some other medium we could maybe have this conversation on?
Friend, I value this discussion alot, but it seems like perhaps I'm a little unwanted here. Probably gonna get banned soon. Is there some other medium we could maybe have this conversation on?
You probably won't get b&, unless you start acting insufferable in other threads. Just finish your discussion here.
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>>35595
>uh oh I am being oppressed
speaks the diversionary shill when unable to uphold the discussion to any substance
>uh oh I am being oppressed
speaks the diversionary shill when unable to uphold the discussion to any substance
>>35598
Thanks mod.
>>35573
I think alot of the left is in to small scale, but many I think agree with you. Marxists lenninists for example are very very into industrialism, while on the other extreme anarcho primitivists are very VERY small scale. Pretty much the only commonality among what we ate addressing as the left is an aversion to capitalism.
Thanks mod.
>>35573
I think alot of the left is in to small scale, but many I think agree with you. Marxists lenninists for example are very very into industrialism, while on the other extreme anarcho primitivists are very VERY small scale. Pretty much the only commonality among what we ate addressing as the left is an aversion to capitalism.
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>>35598
perhaps he thinks that because that's what the left would do if a right wing person come into their forums. Control of information is very important to them.
To prove my point, go to any leftist controlled site or forum and just start having an open discussion without even declaring yourself rightwing.
perhaps he thinks that because that's what the left would do if a right wing person come into their forums. Control of information is very important to them.
To prove my point, go to any leftist controlled site or forum and just start having an open discussion without even declaring yourself rightwing.
>>35607
That makes we want to ask, what do you think of Nationalism, or any form of collectivism where the nation is the corporate unit? Is only Universalist Globalism acceptable?
That makes we want to ask, what do you think of Nationalism, or any form of collectivism where the nation is the corporate unit? Is only Universalist Globalism acceptable?
>>35621
This is gonna start sounding repetitive but, some leftists are very pro nationalism (see:bolshevism, natlibism, etc) some are very global (see: trotskyism, falcism, etc) and some are actually totally anti govt (Anarchism)
This is gonna start sounding repetitive but, some leftists are very pro nationalism (see:bolshevism, natlibism, etc) some are very global (see: trotskyism, falcism, etc) and some are actually totally anti govt (Anarchism)
>>35659
I would like to ask, what got you in to left wing ideology (I know you said before you don't have a specific one, I mean in general)? Have you been on the left all of your life? And similarly, if you were nog into chans and image boards before, why are you now?
I would like to ask, what got you in to left wing ideology (I know you said before you don't have a specific one, I mean in general)? Have you been on the left all of your life? And similarly, if you were nog into chans and image boards before, why are you now?
I, for one, welcome the Newfag. Maybe we can build some bridges or red-pill him. Let's do something actually constructive for once.
So, New Goy, what precisely are your main values and motives?
What is your economic position? —I'm not asking for any titles here, but rather individual components of your ideology. Are you mainly for or against economic regulation, why, and in what circumstances (if any) are you against it or for it? Are you mainly for or against public ownership of the Means of Production (MoP), why, and in what circumstances (if any) are you against it or for it? Are you mainly for or against big governmental presence in the economy, why, and are there any exceptions where you're for or against it?
I'm also interested on where you stand on the other three main axes, New Goy.
Do you consider yourself for a change in society or do you like it where it is at now? What do you wish could change, if anything, and why?
Do you believe that the state should have a large presence in the lives of its citizens or do you lean towards Libertarianism? Are there any liberties of particular significance that you think should be curtailed or untouched by the state, or are there any significant liberties that you take a centrist or syncretic approach on? How and why?
Finally: do you think the priorities of the state be focused on the interests of itself or a particular nationality or should the state take a more multi-cultural, global approach? Furthermore, do you think that the state should primarily be consuming and producing its own products and capital or do you think capital and products should be produced in other states and imported, or do you think the state's economy should primarily be export-oriented? Why do you take these positions and are there any exceptions to the rule?
I have some questions about your ideal governmental system, too. Do you believe in a direct or indirect democracy, a dictatorship/monarchy/oligarchy, or a republic, et cetera? Do you think the government system should be centralized or universal or federal, et cetera? Is your ideal state militaristic, political, technocratic, et cetera? If your ideal state is a democracy, whether direct or indirect, how many parties should there be if any? Why do you take these stances?
Finally, when it comes to international relations, do you consider yourself a Realist, a Liberal, a Constructivist, a Marxist, a Feminist, or et cetera? Also, what approach would you take to foreign policy—a pacifist approach?—an isolationist approach—an interventionalist approach? Why do you take these stances?
I look forward to hearing your responses, OP. I think this is a good opportunity to build some bridges and fix the broken political climate. Welcome to /MLPol/. May almighty Kek bless you with enlightenment and holy digits if you so choose to stay.
Shadilay.
So, New Goy, what precisely are your main values and motives?
What is your economic position? —I'm not asking for any titles here, but rather individual components of your ideology. Are you mainly for or against economic regulation, why, and in what circumstances (if any) are you against it or for it? Are you mainly for or against public ownership of the Means of Production (MoP), why, and in what circumstances (if any) are you against it or for it? Are you mainly for or against big governmental presence in the economy, why, and are there any exceptions where you're for or against it?
I'm also interested on where you stand on the other three main axes, New Goy.
Do you consider yourself for a change in society or do you like it where it is at now? What do you wish could change, if anything, and why?
Do you believe that the state should have a large presence in the lives of its citizens or do you lean towards Libertarianism? Are there any liberties of particular significance that you think should be curtailed or untouched by the state, or are there any significant liberties that you take a centrist or syncretic approach on? How and why?
Finally: do you think the priorities of the state be focused on the interests of itself or a particular nationality or should the state take a more multi-cultural, global approach? Furthermore, do you think that the state should primarily be consuming and producing its own products and capital or do you think capital and products should be produced in other states and imported, or do you think the state's economy should primarily be export-oriented? Why do you take these positions and are there any exceptions to the rule?
I have some questions about your ideal governmental system, too. Do you believe in a direct or indirect democracy, a dictatorship/monarchy/oligarchy, or a republic, et cetera? Do you think the government system should be centralized or universal or federal, et cetera? Is your ideal state militaristic, political, technocratic, et cetera? If your ideal state is a democracy, whether direct or indirect, how many parties should there be if any? Why do you take these stances?
Finally, when it comes to international relations, do you consider yourself a Realist, a Liberal, a Constructivist, a Marxist, a Feminist, or et cetera? Also, what approach would you take to foreign policy—a pacifist approach?—an isolationist approach—an interventionalist approach? Why do you take these stances?
I look forward to hearing your responses, OP. I think this is a good opportunity to build some bridges and fix the broken political climate. Welcome to /MLPol/. May almighty Kek bless you with enlightenment and holy digits if you so choose to stay.
Shadilay.
>>35722
your dubs do nothing from stopping you sounding like an idiot. sorry not sorry.
also, obligatory summer comment.
your dubs do nothing from stopping you sounding like an idiot. sorry not sorry.
also, obligatory summer comment.
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>>35731
Newfaggotry that comes with an attempt at serious discussion is an improvement over the reeing over pixelcanvas earlier.
Newfaggotry that comes with an attempt at serious discussion is an improvement over the reeing over pixelcanvas earlier.
>>35722
i switched from phone to computer, sorry for the change guys.
aight, ima try to get to all of these but a few disclaimers first. one, im by no means set in stone in my policy. i learn more and more every day and im still forming a solid stance. two, i by no means represent the left as a whole. as ive said before, the only commonality among all leftists is a position against capitalism. lets get started.
1. my main value/motive is a utilitarian perspective. i desire the least suffering for the least sentient beings, the most good for the most sentient beings.
2. economically im a communist. private ownership or control of property, especially the means of production, results in a relationship between labouring and ruling classes that leads to exploitation and pain. id like to add, to clarify about some common misconceptions about communism, im not pro-big government. im actually against big government, in that im against the use of force to physically control the means and products of production. (this is not the case for all communists, many are very pro govt, i personally am not.)
3. I consider myself an insurrectionist. not only do i believe society must be changed, but i believe the very foundation of society as we know it is crooked and unusable, and society as a whole must be redone. an insurrection, not a reform.
4. in terms of government, i lean towards anarchism. an- without. archy- rulers, or hierarchy.
5. in addition to not believing in statism, i dont believe in nationhood, or at least not formalised or forceful nationhood. communities, which can take the place of nations/states for this question, should do basically what they want.
6. as stated before, i think people shouldn't be held by force under any state. as a utilitarian i recognise that any formalised order inherantly excludes some folks from absolute fullfillment, and so the minimization of suffering can only take place in the presence of the ability of all individuals to fulfil themselves, ie be free.
7. as virtually all of society today is under some form of extreme hierarchy, i reconise that no nation can truly employ its forces in a way that represents it people or helps the world. i do also recognise, however, that for capitalism to maintain a middle class it requires a surplus profit from an external source, ie imperialism, and therefore realise that their are opressor and opressed nations. to give a specific example: US backing the FSA is bad, Assad is also bad.
Looking forward to this discussion, friend. maybe we can both broaden our horizons a little.
i switched from phone to computer, sorry for the change guys.
aight, ima try to get to all of these but a few disclaimers first. one, im by no means set in stone in my policy. i learn more and more every day and im still forming a solid stance. two, i by no means represent the left as a whole. as ive said before, the only commonality among all leftists is a position against capitalism. lets get started.
1. my main value/motive is a utilitarian perspective. i desire the least suffering for the least sentient beings, the most good for the most sentient beings.
2. economically im a communist. private ownership or control of property, especially the means of production, results in a relationship between labouring and ruling classes that leads to exploitation and pain. id like to add, to clarify about some common misconceptions about communism, im not pro-big government. im actually against big government, in that im against the use of force to physically control the means and products of production. (this is not the case for all communists, many are very pro govt, i personally am not.)
3. I consider myself an insurrectionist. not only do i believe society must be changed, but i believe the very foundation of society as we know it is crooked and unusable, and society as a whole must be redone. an insurrection, not a reform.
4. in terms of government, i lean towards anarchism. an- without. archy- rulers, or hierarchy.
5. in addition to not believing in statism, i dont believe in nationhood, or at least not formalised or forceful nationhood. communities, which can take the place of nations/states for this question, should do basically what they want.
6. as stated before, i think people shouldn't be held by force under any state. as a utilitarian i recognise that any formalised order inherantly excludes some folks from absolute fullfillment, and so the minimization of suffering can only take place in the presence of the ability of all individuals to fulfil themselves, ie be free.
7. as virtually all of society today is under some form of extreme hierarchy, i reconise that no nation can truly employ its forces in a way that represents it people or helps the world. i do also recognise, however, that for capitalism to maintain a middle class it requires a surplus profit from an external source, ie imperialism, and therefore realise that their are opressor and opressed nations. to give a specific example: US backing the FSA is bad, Assad is also bad.
Looking forward to this discussion, friend. maybe we can both broaden our horizons a little.
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>>35731
What did you say, zigger? I'll let you know that I've been here since day one and have stayed here consistently, only switching devices every once an awhile. I was there on April First when 4/MLP/ and 4/Pol/ merged in the first place. Ree.
I'm not even on break yet, anyways; I'm not summerfagging; I'm just trying to have a decent conversation here. BTFO.
What did you say, zigger? I'll let you know that I've been here since day one and have stayed here consistently, only switching devices every once an awhile. I was there on April First when 4/MLP/ and 4/Pol/ merged in the first place. Ree.
I'm not even on break yet, anyways; I'm not summerfagging; I'm just trying to have a decent conversation here. BTFO.
>>35794
I've been here since day one as well. let me remind you how these interactions with communists go though, as if you allow them the benefit of the doubt they will abuse it to force their ideas into most realms of society. this will lead to possible cultural brainwashing and in extreme circumstances much like in the US today, widespread degeneracy and rampant strife of all classes. I'd advise you to stop now, while we still have the chance to remove this small infestation.
I've been here since day one as well. let me remind you how these interactions with communists go though, as if you allow them the benefit of the doubt they will abuse it to force their ideas into most realms of society. this will lead to possible cultural brainwashing and in extreme circumstances much like in the US today, widespread degeneracy and rampant strife of all classes. I'd advise you to stop now, while we still have the chance to remove this small infestation.
>>35781
>I desire the least suffering for the least sentient beings, the most good for the most sentient beings
What, for you, constitutes a sentient being, and what is "good" or "The Good" in a philosophical and ethical sense?
>Against all hierarchy
And here's one of my biggest problems with Communism. It clearly wants an industrial, or post industrial society. How are you going to coordinate anything, be it basic policing, manufacturing of automobiles, international shipping of freight across oceans, or even run a single gas station, without some kind of organization of some kind that is hierarchical and, in some cases, has the functions of a government. Yeah yeah, "communes," "Grand Soviets" and all that, but how are these communes not just governments or corporations organized perhaps just a little democratically than most?
>I don't believe in nationhood. I believe in communities
Do you not believe nations to be organic (in their continued existence, maybe not origins) or to be communities?
>People shouldn't be held in force by the state
How do you solve the problem of the private use of force in crime and violence except by the public use of force to stop it? Do you think the abolition of private property would *perfectly* reduce crime to zero?
I'm this poster from earlier, by the way >>35621
>I desire the least suffering for the least sentient beings, the most good for the most sentient beings
What, for you, constitutes a sentient being, and what is "good" or "The Good" in a philosophical and ethical sense?
>Against all hierarchy
And here's one of my biggest problems with Communism. It clearly wants an industrial, or post industrial society. How are you going to coordinate anything, be it basic policing, manufacturing of automobiles, international shipping of freight across oceans, or even run a single gas station, without some kind of organization of some kind that is hierarchical and, in some cases, has the functions of a government. Yeah yeah, "communes," "Grand Soviets" and all that, but how are these communes not just governments or corporations organized perhaps just a little democratically than most?
>I don't believe in nationhood. I believe in communities
Do you not believe nations to be organic (in their continued existence, maybe not origins) or to be communities?
>People shouldn't be held in force by the state
How do you solve the problem of the private use of force in crime and violence except by the public use of force to stop it? Do you think the abolition of private property would *perfectly* reduce crime to zero?
I'm this poster from earlier, by the way >>35621
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>>35796
1. the absence of suffering, or mabye happiness.
2. the fundamental difference is the horizontality of it. no one individual has authority over any other individual. organisation is achieved by agreement, not force.
3. a rural texan and a portland native are not a natural community, i dont think.
4. by "crime" i assume you mean "people doing things that hurt other people" as obvioulsy theres no "crime" in an anarchist sense. if people are so predisposed to do bad things, why should we put them in positions of power? if society truly must have individuals whose motivation causes others suffering, why give them the tools to expand their power?
1. the absence of suffering, or mabye happiness.
2. the fundamental difference is the horizontality of it. no one individual has authority over any other individual. organisation is achieved by agreement, not force.
3. a rural texan and a portland native are not a natural community, i dont think.
4. by "crime" i assume you mean "people doing things that hurt other people" as obvioulsy theres no "crime" in an anarchist sense. if people are so predisposed to do bad things, why should we put them in positions of power? if society truly must have individuals whose motivation causes others suffering, why give them the tools to expand their power?
Sorry for the switch of ID as well; I changed devices.
>>35795
>if you allow them the benefit of the doubt they will abuse it to force their ideas into most realms of society. this will lead to possible cultural brainwashing and in extreme circumstances much like in the US today, widespread degeneracy and rampant strife of all classes. I'd advise you to stop now
I smell some Steve Shives on you.
Now, don't get me wrong. I hold a great deal of suspicion for Commies, but only when they're in groups. They really can't do much by themselves–especially in environments where their ideas are already considered to be false. This goy is completely alone; he's not representing anyone. I really don't see the issue here.
Besides all that, though: I'm bored.
In case you're wondering: I intend to shift him closer to the economic Center at the very least. A total red-pilling may be impossible but, at the very least, perhaps we can help him see where Communism falls flat on his face.
>>35795
>if you allow them the benefit of the doubt they will abuse it to force their ideas into most realms of society. this will lead to possible cultural brainwashing and in extreme circumstances much like in the US today, widespread degeneracy and rampant strife of all classes. I'd advise you to stop now
I smell some Steve Shives on you.
Now, don't get me wrong. I hold a great deal of suspicion for Commies, but only when they're in groups. They really can't do much by themselves–especially in environments where their ideas are already considered to be false. This goy is completely alone; he's not representing anyone. I really don't see the issue here.
Besides all that, though: I'm bored.
In case you're wondering: I intend to shift him closer to the economic Center at the very least. A total red-pilling may be impossible but, at the very least, perhaps we can help him see where Communism falls flat on his face.
>>35799
Okay, so you'd say you are an ethical hedonist?
How do you get 1000 or 1 million people to agree on anything, especially in situations that require quick action? And what about where specialized knowledge is required? What about differences in preferences between individuals?
Fair enough, but do you think there is no connection between them beyond communal ties?
I mean rape and murder. And the realization that people can do bad things when in power is the reason why 75% of enlightenment philosophy focuses on how to prevent abuses of power by the government. I'm still not sure the best solution is to go on permanent "Purge" rules making all crime, including murder, legal, and letting all criminals go
Okay, so you'd say you are an ethical hedonist?
How do you get 1000 or 1 million people to agree on anything, especially in situations that require quick action? And what about where specialized knowledge is required? What about differences in preferences between individuals?
Fair enough, but do you think there is no connection between them beyond communal ties?
I mean rape and murder. And the realization that people can do bad things when in power is the reason why 75% of enlightenment philosophy focuses on how to prevent abuses of power by the government. I'm still not sure the best solution is to go on permanent "Purge" rules making all crime, including murder, legal, and letting all criminals go
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>>35799
>good is the absence of bad
Without bad, there can be no good. Bad defines good.
>agreement
How exactly do individuals reach an agreement without a social understanding between them? This virtual level playing field you speak of is nothing more than fantasy. It is human nature for a social hierarchy to exist.
>the byproduct of motivation is the suffering of others
it's called natural selection. You aren't a science denier are you?
>good is the absence of bad
Without bad, there can be no good. Bad defines good.
>agreement
How exactly do individuals reach an agreement without a social understanding between them? This virtual level playing field you speak of is nothing more than fantasy. It is human nature for a social hierarchy to exist.
>the byproduct of motivation is the suffering of others
it's called natural selection. You aren't a science denier are you?
How to get folks to agree on things: im confused at this argument. what scenario are you considering that requires an imediate adress by thousands of people simultaneously? how do hierarchies react faster/better?
Crime and government: statism is, inherently, a use of force by a governing entity against a population to create obedience in that population. even in the most democratic or people-serving of cases, this entity could not serve all. virtually all crime is based on law, and not based on hurt. what little crime there is that is based on hurt could easily be addressed by freely, voluntarily associating groups of individuals.
natural selection: as pointed out by environmental scientist Peter Kropotkin, mutual aid is just as if not more effective at supporting survival than natural selection. symbiosis and such.
nationhood: there is a connection between them in a statist society: they are objected to the same laws.
Crime and government: statism is, inherently, a use of force by a governing entity against a population to create obedience in that population. even in the most democratic or people-serving of cases, this entity could not serve all. virtually all crime is based on law, and not based on hurt. what little crime there is that is based on hurt could easily be addressed by freely, voluntarily associating groups of individuals.
natural selection: as pointed out by environmental scientist Peter Kropotkin, mutual aid is just as if not more effective at supporting survival than natural selection. symbiosis and such.
nationhood: there is a connection between them in a statist society: they are objected to the same laws.
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>>35811
You suggested that people would just agree to work together for the benefit of each other (out of the goodness of their hearts I presume). I posed that in no way will such an agreement just happen without a social and economic hierarchy.
>democracy
Democracy is shit, and always has been shit.
>Voluntarism
Better. Not good but better. You're sounding more like Stefan Molyneux than antifa with that one.
>Kropotkin
I'm glad you're here. The literary echo-chamber most commies exist in is why communism still exists. You echo the same ideas around long enough, they become the only ideas, and therefore the accepted ideas.
>Symbiosis
How exactly is a leach/leachee relationship symbiotic?
>inb4 bloodletting
You suggested that people would just agree to work together for the benefit of each other (out of the goodness of their hearts I presume). I posed that in no way will such an agreement just happen without a social and economic hierarchy.
>democracy
Democracy is shit, and always has been shit.
>Voluntarism
Better. Not good but better. You're sounding more like Stefan Molyneux than antifa with that one.
>Kropotkin
I'm glad you're here. The literary echo-chamber most commies exist in is why communism still exists. You echo the same ideas around long enough, they become the only ideas, and therefore the accepted ideas.
>Symbiosis
How exactly is a leach/leachee relationship symbiotic?
>inb4 bloodletting
>>35811
I would assume, for example, that if a forest fire is about to destroy a town, it would require an elaborate and organized response by someone. And the moment you agree to letting some one address the issue of the forest fire, that someone is basically a mayor. And the same with basically everything else. Managing things requires details and decisions. Where will the next plant be located? What architect will we go with? who will meet the representatives from the other industry? What shall be served for lunch? These are all decisions that 1000 people can't be bothered to make, even though more than 1000 people can be affected by the location of a new factory, who designs it, who meets with the representatives, and what will be served at lunch the first day when it opens. And if every one of those 1000 had to agree or debate over it, the problem becomes compounded even more.
You know murder and rape happen even where there is no government, right? You know even wild animals do it. So how do you stop it? With lynch mobs and vindictive individual families? Do you think that lynch mobs will be kinder and less prone to abuses of power than democratically accountable constitutionally governed criminal justice systems?
I agree that there is a connection between states and nations. I believe that the nation is the natural basis of the state. Humans are tribal animals that evolved to live in hierarchical troops, and nation-states are these tribes scaled up and brought into civilization
I would assume, for example, that if a forest fire is about to destroy a town, it would require an elaborate and organized response by someone. And the moment you agree to letting some one address the issue of the forest fire, that someone is basically a mayor. And the same with basically everything else. Managing things requires details and decisions. Where will the next plant be located? What architect will we go with? who will meet the representatives from the other industry? What shall be served for lunch? These are all decisions that 1000 people can't be bothered to make, even though more than 1000 people can be affected by the location of a new factory, who designs it, who meets with the representatives, and what will be served at lunch the first day when it opens. And if every one of those 1000 had to agree or debate over it, the problem becomes compounded even more.
You know murder and rape happen even where there is no government, right? You know even wild animals do it. So how do you stop it? With lynch mobs and vindictive individual families? Do you think that lynch mobs will be kinder and less prone to abuses of power than democratically accountable constitutionally governed criminal justice systems?
I agree that there is a connection between states and nations. I believe that the nation is the natural basis of the state. Humans are tribal animals that evolved to live in hierarchical troops, and nation-states are these tribes scaled up and brought into civilization
>>35821
still not convinced abt the nation thing tbh.
why couldnt individuals put out the fire? if my town was on fire i wouldnt need some police officer to come force me to put it out.
historically, governmentaly organised forces have committed a hell of a lot more murder and rape than free individuals.
still not convinced abt the nation thing tbh.
why couldnt individuals put out the fire? if my town was on fire i wouldnt need some police officer to come force me to put it out.
historically, governmentaly organised forces have committed a hell of a lot more murder and rape than free individuals.
>>35822
Here's a more likely scenario
>Hey let's work together to farm this land
okay
>another break?
yep
>without your help we won't have enough food for the winter
I don't feel like working right now
>If you don't work, you shouldn't eat
That's not what we agreed upon
>dam u
I see you have the harvest done
>no thanks to you
I'm hungry, lets eat
>I only have enough for my family
It's not your food
>I worked for it, it should be mine
Nobody owns anything, ownership is oppressive
>More oppressive than what you're doing?
>my family will starve!
So will mine
>you could have prevented that!
I didn't feel like it
let's eat
RIP in peace commies.
Here's a more likely scenario
>Hey let's work together to farm this land
okay
>another break?
yep
>without your help we won't have enough food for the winter
I don't feel like working right now
>If you don't work, you shouldn't eat
That's not what we agreed upon
>dam u
I see you have the harvest done
>no thanks to you
I'm hungry, lets eat
>I only have enough for my family
It's not your food
>I worked for it, it should be mine
Nobody owns anything, ownership is oppressive
>More oppressive than what you're doing?
>my family will starve!
So will mine
>you could have prevented that!
I didn't feel like it
let's eat
RIP in peace commies.
>>35825
>why couldnt individuals put out the fire?
>individuals aren't completely petty and fickle beings.
>grudges won't exist in your utopia
goobie pls
>why couldnt individuals put out the fire?
>individuals aren't completely petty and fickle beings.
>grudges won't exist in your utopia
goobie pls
>>35830
im not convinced that if this is truly how humans act in situations of need we would still be alive today. and im also not convinced that historical governments and todays ruling class have facilitated production and organisation, rather they have stolen from the individuals they rule.
>that guy was dumb, lets set up a hierarchy to prevent this from happening again
kk
>if you dont work, you dont eat, or our yearly elected cop will stab you
kk
>hey im this years yearly elected cop, work more
kk, wbu tho
>>lol im not gonna stab myself, make my food dude
ugh, kk
>>also im forever cop from now on
im not convinced that if this is truly how humans act in situations of need we would still be alive today. and im also not convinced that historical governments and todays ruling class have facilitated production and organisation, rather they have stolen from the individuals they rule.
>that guy was dumb, lets set up a hierarchy to prevent this from happening again
kk
>if you dont work, you dont eat, or our yearly elected cop will stab you
kk
>hey im this years yearly elected cop, work more
kk, wbu tho
>>lol im not gonna stab myself, make my food dude
ugh, kk
>>also im forever cop from now on
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>>35781
Alright, OP, get ready for some serious and aggressive criticism. Don't take it personnelle ex dee; I'm not trying to scare you off or anything, and I'm not saying this out of spite. I'm just playing this as I would play a chess match.
My main gripe with Communism and extreme Socialism is that total equality cannot ever exist in the first place. My second is that Communist states dismiss human nature and need to result to questionable methods to keep itself afloat. I'll go through my two main arguments in order. Just as a warning: This may require several posts to lay out.
Nature lays itself out in hierarchies, from the structure of matter to social structure, economic class, et cetera. It's not something that a state can easily get rid of, if at all. In the process of getting rid of it, the state creates a new hierarchy of power in which it is the alpha-male and the citizens are omegas. This isn't really a strong argument, though, it seems, right?
It is a fact of nature that the moment you create an equality, you create an inequality. This is apparent from the largest of systems to the smallest packet of information necessary to form deductive logic (numbers). It is burned into the realm of logic itself. This applies even when talking about the welfare system and dealing with wealth inequality.
Say, for instance, there are two men trying to look over a brick wall. One man, A, is able to look over the wall just fine but the other, B, is too short. So, the state gives B some blocks of wood to stand on. "Okay," you may say; "this looks just fine. Both people are equal." Wrong. In the creation of equality of outcome, you have created an inequality of opportunity. B can now sell the blocks of wood on the wood market, or trade it with a wood-worker where A cannot. In this circumstance, A now needs to work to get the same blocks of wood that the wood-worker got to even out the inequality. So he talks to the government and the government finds that it either needs to steal the wood from the wood-worker or it needs to give everyone the same amount of wood. If it decides to steal the wood from the wood-worker, person B now has no wood to stand on and the situation remains the same overall. If the government decides to give everyone the same amount of wood, the movement of wood between individuals creates in it of itself its own market and the government keeps giving more and more wood until it becomes bankrupt and the state goes through an economic crisis similar to what is going on in Greece right now.
I'll post more later. Right now, I gotta shower.
Alright, OP, get ready for some serious and aggressive criticism. Don't take it personnelle ex dee; I'm not trying to scare you off or anything, and I'm not saying this out of spite. I'm just playing this as I would play a chess match.
My main gripe with Communism and extreme Socialism is that total equality cannot ever exist in the first place. My second is that Communist states dismiss human nature and need to result to questionable methods to keep itself afloat. I'll go through my two main arguments in order. Just as a warning: This may require several posts to lay out.
Nature lays itself out in hierarchies, from the structure of matter to social structure, economic class, et cetera. It's not something that a state can easily get rid of, if at all. In the process of getting rid of it, the state creates a new hierarchy of power in which it is the alpha-male and the citizens are omegas. This isn't really a strong argument, though, it seems, right?
It is a fact of nature that the moment you create an equality, you create an inequality. This is apparent from the largest of systems to the smallest packet of information necessary to form deductive logic (numbers). It is burned into the realm of logic itself. This applies even when talking about the welfare system and dealing with wealth inequality.
Say, for instance, there are two men trying to look over a brick wall. One man, A, is able to look over the wall just fine but the other, B, is too short. So, the state gives B some blocks of wood to stand on. "Okay," you may say; "this looks just fine. Both people are equal." Wrong. In the creation of equality of outcome, you have created an inequality of opportunity. B can now sell the blocks of wood on the wood market, or trade it with a wood-worker where A cannot. In this circumstance, A now needs to work to get the same blocks of wood that the wood-worker got to even out the inequality. So he talks to the government and the government finds that it either needs to steal the wood from the wood-worker or it needs to give everyone the same amount of wood. If it decides to steal the wood from the wood-worker, person B now has no wood to stand on and the situation remains the same overall. If the government decides to give everyone the same amount of wood, the movement of wood between individuals creates in it of itself its own market and the government keeps giving more and more wood until it becomes bankrupt and the state goes through an economic crisis similar to what is going on in Greece right now.
I'll post more later. Right now, I gotta shower.
>>35833
>)
im not convinced that if this is truly how humans act in situations of need we would still be alive today
I am. I look the reality of human nature in the face every day at work. I know what people are like when they're reduced to their base nature through hardship.
>your scenario
>if you dont work, you dont eat, or our yearly elected cop will stab you
That escalated quickly.
>implying a benevolent dictator isn't the most beneficial form of ruler-ship that exists to the most people.
>implying a strong society held together by common thought, nature, and goals wouldn't dispose of a tyrant that doesn't benefit them.
For someone who puts so much faith in mankind, you don't give people much credence.
>)
im not convinced that if this is truly how humans act in situations of need we would still be alive today
I am. I look the reality of human nature in the face every day at work. I know what people are like when they're reduced to their base nature through hardship.
>your scenario
>if you dont work, you dont eat, or our yearly elected cop will stab you
That escalated quickly.
>implying a benevolent dictator isn't the most beneficial form of ruler-ship that exists to the most people.
>implying a strong society held together by common thought, nature, and goals wouldn't dispose of a tyrant that doesn't benefit them.
For someone who puts so much faith in mankind, you don't give people much credence.
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>>35825
>why couldnt individuals put out the fire?
Ben Franklin didn't create Fire Brigades for no reason, M8: organization is necessary to protect human life and property.
I get your point though, people don't, or rather, shouldn't, need to be forced to do their Civic duties. If a community is healthy, people should do their best to protect their neighborhoods. That's what /rwss/ is all about.
>why couldnt individuals put out the fire?
Ben Franklin didn't create Fire Brigades for no reason, M8: organization is necessary to protect human life and property.
I get your point though, people don't, or rather, shouldn't, need to be forced to do their Civic duties. If a community is healthy, people should do their best to protect their neighborhoods. That's what /rwss/ is all about.
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>>35825
A quick image search of forest fires gives some pretty horrifying results. Most of these require planes and helicopters to combat, and any individual trying to combat it themselves risks death. But never mind forest fires, earth quakes, floods, famines, plagues, volcanos, Hurricanes, or any of the other major natural disasters that occasionally happen, could a firestation operate without a chief? Could you scale it up and still not have a leader? Really, any collective effort - Shipping a container across an ocean, rebuilding from a flood, building a factory - invariably requires a hierarchy to coordinate and make decisions.
A quick image search of forest fires gives some pretty horrifying results. Most of these require planes and helicopters to combat, and any individual trying to combat it themselves risks death. But never mind forest fires, earth quakes, floods, famines, plagues, volcanos, Hurricanes, or any of the other major natural disasters that occasionally happen, could a firestation operate without a chief? Could you scale it up and still not have a leader? Really, any collective effort - Shipping a container across an ocean, rebuilding from a flood, building a factory - invariably requires a hierarchy to coordinate and make decisions.
>>35801
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now, but he's by no means alone. other commies have appeared, albeit over time. he may be only the third I've seen on this site, but that doesn't mean there aren't more in the wings since the other two have also gotten similar reception. I hope sincerely this doesn't become a problem, because if there ever is a /leftymlpol/ I will know that we've lost as well.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now, but he's by no means alone. other commies have appeared, albeit over time. he may be only the third I've seen on this site, but that doesn't mean there aren't more in the wings since the other two have also gotten similar reception. I hope sincerely this doesn't become a problem, because if there ever is a /leftymlpol/ I will know that we've lost as well.
some nuance here: authority and organisation arent inherently tied. organisation between individuals can exsist without a boss.
>>35845
>I hope sincerely this doesn't become a problem, because if there ever is a /leftymlpol/ I will know that we've lost as well.
This!
Mother of God..!
>I hope sincerely this doesn't become a problem, because if there ever is a /leftymlpol/ I will know that we've lost as well.
This!
Mother of God..!
>>35854
why not? if those hundreds or thousands of people had a common goal, why couldnt they organise to achieve it?
why not? if those hundreds or thousands of people had a common goal, why couldnt they organise to achieve it?
>>35825
Do you really think that fewer people would die in the United States if the US government did not exist and rape and murder were unpunished except by family vendettas and mobs? I've watched asylum hearings of people fleeing Central America because of familial vendettas in revenge for crimes, besides the general anarchy caused by the inability of the police to control gangs
Do you really think that fewer people would die in the United States if the US government did not exist and rape and murder were unpunished except by family vendettas and mobs? I've watched asylum hearings of people fleeing Central America because of familial vendettas in revenge for crimes, besides the general anarchy caused by the inability of the police to control gangs
a comment, we seem to be largely on the subject of the libertarian/authoritarian axis here, which seems odd to me. i came here chiefly as a leftist looking to learn from the right, perhaps wecould explore that axis a little, if you guys wanted?
>>35859
the US government that facilitates mass incarceration, wage slavery, imperialism, and forced consumerism?
now we're getting into controversial territory, im excited
the US government that facilitates mass incarceration, wage slavery, imperialism, and forced consumerism?
now we're getting into controversial territory, im excited
>>35861
i mean, literally every human being in the world shares the goals of, for example, having enough food to eat, so like
i mean, literally every human being in the world shares the goals of, for example, having enough food to eat, so like
>>35866
Yeah.. That's an individual goal. That will never translate into a group goal without a social hierarchy (with the exception being small isolated communes)<- I have nothing against those.
Yeah.. That's an individual goal. That will never translate into a group goal without a social hierarchy (with the exception being small isolated communes)<- I have nothing against those.
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>>35869
At that point it becomes a target for the altbrony. They'd take more affront to it then we ever would. Besides, that could lead to some epic raiding from both sides. Calvary should never sit idle for long
At that point it becomes a target for the altbrony. They'd take more affront to it then we ever would. Besides, that could lead to some epic raiding from both sides. Calvary should never sit idle for long
>>35874
A group goal is one that is formed and organized by a group. An individual goal is the antithesis of a group goal.
A group goal is one that is formed and organized by a group. An individual goal is the antithesis of a group goal.
>>35869
/mlpol/ as a concept belongs to the community itself, as such I can only REEEEEEEE at the commie scum but nothing else
though im not going to ban someone for being left, just for trying to start a fight on the server, political discussion is always welcome, even if I don't agree
except pedos, fuck those guys
/mlpol/ as a concept belongs to the community itself, as such I can only REEEEEEEE at the commie scum but nothing else
though im not going to ban someone for being left, just for trying to start a fight on the server, political discussion is always welcome, even if I don't agree
except pedos, fuck those guys
>>35875
>formed and organised
so if a group doesnt agree on it in a formal way, its not a group goal? i fail to see how this distinction is useful
>formed and organised
so if a group doesnt agree on it in a formal way, its not a group goal? i fail to see how this distinction is useful
>>35875
I'll expound on this briefly. I would assume to be correct that it's not in your forethought or within your realm of concern whether or not I have something to eat tomorrow. That doesn't make you evil, or heartless, it's purely a division (in the organizational sense) of thought.
I'll expound on this briefly. I would assume to be correct that it's not in your forethought or within your realm of concern whether or not I have something to eat tomorrow. That doesn't make you evil, or heartless, it's purely a division (in the organizational sense) of thought.
>>35881
ah i see, so the individual goal is "id like something to eat tomorrow" and the group goal is "id like there to be enough food for all tomorrow", correct?
ah i see, so the individual goal is "id like something to eat tomorrow" and the group goal is "id like there to be enough food for all tomorrow", correct?
>>35857
Of course thousands of people with a common goal can organize to achieve it. That's what a nation-state it. That's what a corporation is. I'm just saying that these organizations, at least when they are expanded beyond a certain size, require a hierarchy because of the impossibility of unanimity, the need for quick decisions, the need for specialized knowledge, and the problems of administration. Of course people need to eat. That common need is what drives the exchange of goods and services that is the free market system. But that alone will not allow for collective action, because individual need only drives action that benefits the individual. A collective cause - to be a part of a nation, to serve it, to see it achieve glory, to partake in that collective glory, and to protect it against all challenges - that is the sort of motivation that drives great collective action.
>>35860
Please read Haidt's comments on authority and group loyalty. You'd see that we actually still are on the left/right axis
>>35862
If it's worse than the anarchy of Central America, then why aren't Americans claiming refugee status in Honduras?
>>35879
He means a goal that by its inherent nature is collective. Like mlpol's pixel canvas art. That is the collective product and pride of the mlpol community, meant to represent mlpol as a collective and its essential character
Of course thousands of people with a common goal can organize to achieve it. That's what a nation-state it. That's what a corporation is. I'm just saying that these organizations, at least when they are expanded beyond a certain size, require a hierarchy because of the impossibility of unanimity, the need for quick decisions, the need for specialized knowledge, and the problems of administration. Of course people need to eat. That common need is what drives the exchange of goods and services that is the free market system. But that alone will not allow for collective action, because individual need only drives action that benefits the individual. A collective cause - to be a part of a nation, to serve it, to see it achieve glory, to partake in that collective glory, and to protect it against all challenges - that is the sort of motivation that drives great collective action.
>>35860
Please read Haidt's comments on authority and group loyalty. You'd see that we actually still are on the left/right axis
>>35862
If it's worse than the anarchy of Central America, then why aren't Americans claiming refugee status in Honduras?
>>35879
He means a goal that by its inherent nature is collective. Like mlpol's pixel canvas art. That is the collective product and pride of the mlpol community, meant to represent mlpol as a collective and its essential character
>>35883
>"id like there to be enough food for all tomorrow"
Not outside of a family context. If you're expanding beyond that, you're looking at different levels of thought, and survival isn't driven by the higher platitudinous levels of thought, it's driven by the basic ones.
>"id like there to be enough food for all tomorrow"
Not outside of a family context. If you're expanding beyond that, you're looking at different levels of thought, and survival isn't driven by the higher platitudinous levels of thought, it's driven by the basic ones.
>>35887
ah, so a group goal is still a basic goal, and the only way for that basic goal to extend beyond immediate family is for it to be enforced by hierarchy?
ah, so a group goal is still a basic goal, and the only way for that basic goal to extend beyond immediate family is for it to be enforced by hierarchy?
Our strat for handling these types of threads should be an initial spam with porn, and then we ask a question. If they stay after the porn to actually have a real talk, then we can tell them why their ideology is retarded.
>>35888
>so a group goal is still a basic goal
within what context now?
You seem to have completely lost me.
>so a group goal is still a basic goal
within what context now?
You seem to have completely lost me.
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>>35425
>American Management Association
>American Marketing Association
>American Medical Association
What?!
>American Management Association
>American Marketing Association
>American Medical Association
What?!
>>35910
yes, hence my heavy usage of the sage feature. you can still delete your posts to de-bump it, though.
yes, hence my heavy usage of the sage feature. you can still delete your posts to de-bump it, though.
>>35837
And I hath returned.
Yesterday, I brought up the stool inequality problem, in which person B gave wood to the woodworker, person C. Why would person B do this, though? Most people don't just give out something that would benefit themselves for nothing, after all.
Most people trade things for other products or capital, which forms the basis for a market. Let's say that person B is giving the woodworker wood in exchange for a chair. Person B can now give that hair to someone else in exchange for a service. This creates a flow of goods—an economy.
Let's say that chair holds value in the eyes of its maker, the woodworker. Of course it would; he made it after all. Why would he want to give it away? Perhaps he's low on wood and needs more to make more works of art? Exactly. The woodworker has a demand for wood. Person B supplies C with wood, but B has a demand for a chair. So C supplies B with his newly made chair. This wouldn't happen, though, if B didn't give him something in exchange for the chair.
In other words: Communism disencourages people to give others their services because they get nothing in exchange.
So…what's going to prevent the government from collapsing? Forcing people to work? Or…money?
Communism therefore ultimately results in one of two systems: fascism or CAPITALISM.
And I hath returned.
Yesterday, I brought up the stool inequality problem, in which person B gave wood to the woodworker, person C. Why would person B do this, though? Most people don't just give out something that would benefit themselves for nothing, after all.
Most people trade things for other products or capital, which forms the basis for a market. Let's say that person B is giving the woodworker wood in exchange for a chair. Person B can now give that hair to someone else in exchange for a service. This creates a flow of goods—an economy.
Let's say that chair holds value in the eyes of its maker, the woodworker. Of course it would; he made it after all. Why would he want to give it away? Perhaps he's low on wood and needs more to make more works of art? Exactly. The woodworker has a demand for wood. Person B supplies C with wood, but B has a demand for a chair. So C supplies B with his newly made chair. This wouldn't happen, though, if B didn't give him something in exchange for the chair.
In other words: Communism disencourages people to give others their services because they get nothing in exchange.
So…what's going to prevent the government from collapsing? Forcing people to work? Or…money?
Communism therefore ultimately results in one of two systems: fascism or CAPITALISM.
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>>35425
The thing that upsets me is how being left-handed has been culturally appropriated by the "left". WHEN 90% OF THEM DON'T EVEN KNOW THE STRUGGLE.
The thing that upsets me is how being left-handed has been culturally appropriated by the "left". WHEN 90% OF THEM DON'T EVEN KNOW THE STRUGGLE.
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>>35511
Are.. are you talking about the bikelock brigader? because he was absolutely fucking guilty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muoR8Td44UE&list=PLHTeAiqTTlUiqrbi3SbxnmsizDignqgWp
Are.. are you talking about the bikelock brigader? because he was absolutely fucking guilty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muoR8Td44UE&list=PLHTeAiqTTlUiqrbi3SbxnmsizDignqgWp
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