The Naruto thread, for Naruto discussion. You can talk about what you like/dislike about the show, your favourite character, your least favourite retcon, and anything else you want.
To get this started I think I'll talk about my least favourite retcon in the series.
When the story first started, Naruto Uzumaki was a nobody.
And an orphan who lives alone in a shitty apartment.
Dead-last in his ninja school, considered a failure by damn near everyone who knew him, hated for a reason he didn't know, he resorted to pranking people and vandalizing the Ninja Mount Rushmore monument in Konoha (The Hidden Leaf Village) for attention. Only one teacher liked him.
He wants to be Hokage (Ninja President) but at first nobody thinks he'll make it.
To make matters worse, this is a setting where things just aren't fair. Some people are born with more talent than others. There are people out there younger than Naruto with more talent than his Ninja senseis. Some people are legitimately threatened by caltrops and ninja knives, and some people are demigods who explode mountains by looking at them and effortlessly survive taking island-destroying explosions to the face.
Some people are born with Kekkei Genkais (Bloodline Limits), a genetic mutation that improves their body or lets them use a certain element nobody else can use. In a world where it takes a long time to learn one Fire/Water/Earth/Wind/Lightning spell and having two elements is considered a sign that you're epic, these people get an extra element on top like Magnetism or Lava. Or lets them use a combo-element like Ice which is a combination of wind and water magic, granting them incredible talent in both elements and the ability to perform ninja hand-seals one-handed. Or a unique evolutionary advantage like white eyes with X-ray vision that see in a 360-degree sphere for miles and let you see the body's chakra points, or bullshit purple god-eyes, or red and black eyes that see faster and gradually unlock increasingly bullshit powers like improve your reflexes, spit magical black fire so hot it burns regular fire and can only be extinguished by sealing magic, trap people in a torture illusion that lasts ages for the victim but a second in reality, make a big fucking gundam out of magic, shit on causality to "turn your wounds into illusions" for six seconds at the cost of your sight in that eye, create a mental time loop for someone until they give up, and get some bullshit power unique to the individual like the ability to mind-control anyone or displace matter or get really really good control of the black fire.
Some people are born with power and immense talent, and some people are nobodies like Naruto.
He did have The Nine-Tailed Fox sealed inside him as a baby, which is an evil demon who hates humanity and wants to be free. But he's not on Naruto's side, and whenever Naruto gets pissed the fox tries to escape.
Naruto was considered a loser by everyone who knew him, and he was a loudmouthed knuckleheaded brat. And yet, he had potential. Once someone told him to do it, he was able to sneak into the Hokage's (Ninja President's) tower, steal the Forbidden Scroll, and learn one technique from it that would quickly become his signature move: The Shadow Clone Jutsu. He saved the life of the teacher that liked him.
He was assigned to a team that hated him at first, getting stuck with the lazy genius Kakashi Hatake, the "grumpy on the outside, kind on the inside" (at first) Sasuke Uchiha, and the shit Sakura Haruno.
The author Kishimoto wanted Sakura to be a normal girl to contrast the stronger and more interesting characters in her team. This was a really stupid move, as Sakura's the least interesting/funny/likable female character in a show where females are already usually uninteresting/unfunny/unlikable, making the rare good females stand out.
Naruto had the odds stacked against him for all of the show, when it was good. He was a nobody who worked hard, and proved to the world he can improve even if they've written him off as a "dead-last loser for life". He beats some fatalist guy who says "People cannot change their destiny" and it's epic. He defeats many foes destined to be stronger than him by working his ass off.
And then, near the end of the tale, the author decides to retcon Naruto's parentage.
Suddenly, Naruto was always some fucking Crusader Kings god-baby with two of the greatest parents possible. His dad turned out to be The Yellow Flash Minato Namikaze, The Fourth Hokage. And his mom was Kushina Uzumaki, a previous Jinchuriki for the Nine-Tails. Their family tree's full of previous Hokage and super-powerful/important people, and Naruto is not only directly related to The Sage Of Six Paths (mythical Ninja Jesus), he is also the reincarnation of the good son of the Sage of Six Paths who's destined to get strong and battle the reincarnation of the evil son. Naruto always had it easier than those with worse parentage.
The final powerups necessary to defeat the final bosses don't come from the people of the Ninja world training hard and using great teamwork and strategy to overcome overwhelming odds. It's handed to them by deus ex machina ninja jesus spirits.
This really detracts from all the "Fuck destiny!" shit the story's said until now.
>>1334>This really detracts from all the "Fuck destiny!" shit the story's said until now.
Yeah, that sort of thing really doesn't satisfy anyone.
I actually wondered when I saw the first episode of naruto for the first time in the past, why they didn't mention the fact that Naruto's father was the last Hokage. You think people would respect him due to his linage.
Was his linage a secret and a surprize to Naruto as well?
I'm also not really a fan of these type of story in the first place? Like, I'm not a fan of stories where these characters succeed in the end. Naruto becomes the Hokage but I think it is more intresting if he fails but finds peace in just being anyway.
I can't help but think about top chess players that train all day every day and other high-level preforming people that spend all their life doing one thing. I don't know. If you're not fighting for a cause, then what's the point? Then again, people choose how they wanna spend their time.
There is also that that some people cannot accomplish everything. Our bodies have limits and there are others that also train like crazy to become the best and there are many people in the world.
I'm not really a person who subscribe to the idea that everything should be in moderation because moderation is always vague. Who decides if you go too far in one direction or the other?
But I think that one should think about what one wants out of life and what is right and from there, make one's decision on where to go form there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MnLkNNGfsQ
Naruto already proved that he could fight with the best of them. There seems to be no pont where he settles. I guess that's fine though but in reality, time will catch up to him and then the question is if Naruto will regret his choices or not.
"The ability to play chess is a sign of a gentlemen. The ability to play chess well is a sign of a wasted life." - Paul Morphy.
>>1334>retcon Naruto's parents
Observably false. Naruto's parents were never overtly mentioned in the first series, because we weren't getting to know 'Naruto, the son of the 4th and the prior jinchuriki', Kishimoto wanted the audience to get to know Naruto 'the #1 most unpredictable ninja'; the character, his current experience, and how it transitioned into (more) adulthood, wherein he/we learn the secrets of his parents (which barely a handful of ninja even knew, and you know why? Cuz when you talk about secrets they become not secrets. You're a liar if you suggest that someone telling Naruto of his parentage, or an off-hand comment/thought about them would have been a better reveal than the reveal in the series, and you're being a petulant child if you assert that it constitutes a retcon just because you dont grasp what, why, and how Kishimoto did there).
Naruto and Naruto: Shippuden are both shonen anime, which means that plot armor, deus ex fuckery, and 'final showdown with the main character' is a given. If you wanna cry about that, stop fixating on Shonen anime.>those guys totally shouldnt be able to do crazy eye magic with gundams and shit, that's unrealistic
[Its a shonen anime[/i]>Naruto was some crusader-king god king
Naruto was always that, the audience was simply left guessing about it. That you neglect to appreciate or comprehend how that is better than outright telling the audience neither impugned on the quality of the story, nor does it give you a leg to stand on when trying to assert that it's 'bad'>>1335>Was his lineage a secret and a surprize to Naruto as well?
Yes. Deliberately and unequivocally. It was a big reveal that most everyone saw coming almost from day one, but which the author deliberately teased and avoided outright saying, leading to all manner of parallel AND adjacent theories, which is what a teased fanbase DOES about a series/topic/story they're fascinated with.
Tl;dr Yes, with showmanship
The excuse for Naruto growing up a loathed orphan is stupid. "If they knew Kushina and Minato had a kid they would have made attempts on his life"? Maybe if the village had better security that wouldn't have been an issue for him or the Hyuga.
Originally Naruto's Nine-Tailed Fox and the One-Tailed Shukaku were different things, (At least I think they were?) but after a while it's revealed that they were always part of a set of nine. In a world where people know what Jinchuriki are, it makes no sense for them to be socially ostracized/feared at best. They aren't reincarnations of those demons, they are the jailers of those demons. They could unleash their demons upon the world if they wanted to. Or control the powers of their demons to get OP fast.>>1336
Naruto could still be that number 1 unpredictable ninja even with famous amazing parents to disappoint at first.
I don't know why you're such an angry man in every single conversation we have no matter what it's about. This might be an anonymous message board but it's impossible to miss your needlessly hostile writing style. We could talk about Naruto right now, but instead you're insulting me over what I said.
It makes no sense for you to pretend Kishimoto "God I fucking love the Uchiha" Kishimoto is some underrated misunderstood genius whose retcons were actually things people didn't understand.
Pretending lazy writing and bad retcons are inherent parts of shonen anime devalues all the work better writers put into making their settings internally consistent and their stories interesting. Naruto was interesting when it was about ninjas who fight with hand to hand combat and sometimes magical bullshit. When it escalated wildly out of control and became about glowing planet-busting god-men blasting each other through the moon, it lost something vital to its identity.
And parallel adjacent theories? Back in the day, people said "Tobi can't be Obito because that's too obvious".
>>1337>I dont like it, therefore it's bad
Here we go again. From the top:>I dont like the plot device Kishimoto used therefore it's stupid
No u>better security
Speculative and worthless. The idea is that in the ninja world, intelligence and planning can upset even the best laid security measures, hence it DOES make sense for Naruto to be reared under the 'worthless orphan' banner, rather than revealing to the village (and by proxy the world, cuz it only takes one captured genin or chuunin to ascertain common knowledge) that he's the son of A. The unbeatable/legendary ninja who slaughtered entire armies single handedly and shit and B. the former jinchuriki (which would provide a paper trail to Naruto and the 9 tails). It makes perfect sense, if you're not thick.>were different things, (At least I think they were?)
It was never specified in the first series, so as usual your thoughts are irrelevant. In fact, your thoughts are precisely the speculation that results from an author who knows how to properly pace and control what the audience knows.>it makes no sense for them to be ostracized
It does actually. People fear what they dont understand, especially if it is inherently a threat. The expounded history is not detailed to us, and given the often erratic nature of the beasts its probable that previous hosts didnt react to their presence with the same level of control. Look at Gaara, who turned into a rampaging monster any time he went to sleep. Additionally, it's not improbable that the sealing techniques were developed over time, and that previous hosts may have had little/no control by way of lesser seals, effectively turning hosts into human forms of the beasts. Thus, it is perfectly reasonable that beasts would be feared even when put into hosts.>Naruto could still be the
No, because there would be heaps and heaps of expectations laid on him>son of the 4th>son of a well regarded and established clan from which the previous jinchu emerged
Kakashi had expectations cuz of his dad. The Uchiha/Hyuuga/etc all had expectations cuz clan. And more to that point, Haku's clan, Kimimaro's clan, as well as others were WIPED OUT because people (sometimes their own village) feared their power, and that's without a beast. Your point is retarded.>why are you such a meanie
Doot>It makes no senseTo you, who missed the point entirely.
again, that's not a retcon>lazy writing and bad retcons
You've yet to validate any 'retcon' that wasnt just you being too thick to grasp the subject. As for lazy writing being part of shonen, yeah it does mean that. Provide an example of a Shonen anine/manga that doesnt involve some degree of tropey writing/story, especially pertaining to the main character.> it was about ninjas who fight with hand to hand combat and sometimes magical bullshit
Wrong again. That was the ninja world that we as an audience knew, because that was the ninja world that the main character(s) knew. That the crazy god shit wasnt initially introduced is not inherently bad, you just dont like it, which is again, irrelevant.
Did you like the Rinnegan?
I dont see how that matters. As a concept, story element/facet, and plot device, it served its purpose.
What purpose did the Rinnegan serve, then?
Off the top of my head?
Creating the ninja world, serving as the means to maintain Madara, through whom Obito and Kakashi could have their character redemptions, as well as Nagato and even Naruto to some degree (since the Pain fight is when Naruto finally learns that his dad was the 4th, as well as the point that Hinata confessed her feelings). Later on the rinnegan was the driving force behind watching hundreds of crappy ninja get owned (with a few exciting fights interspersed), and finally (in a very cursory list) it was the vehicle behind 1/2 of a very yin/yang, 'friendship is magic' exposition, resolving the conflict between Sasuke and Naruto.
Do you think Kishimoto made a mistake when trying to make his setting all about two clans/two brothers/two reincarnations of the sons of the six paths sage?
And why would I think that?
It seems to me like it limits your setting to make everything revolve around one uber-powerful family, whether that's the Uchiha or Senju or Kaguyas.
Do you miss the days when people speculated over whether the final boss would be Orochimaru and his Hidden Sound village or the Bloody Mist village?
No, and no.
The audience didnt learn that it all 'revolved around an uber powerful family' a nihilistically reductionist position if ever there has been
until the very end of Naruto, and that didnt diminish all the instances where it was arguably the greatest series of all time. Is it? I'm not here to argue that point (no, btw). Neither am I here to argue whether Naruto made mistakes; of course it did, there is no such thing as a flawless anime.
But please, show some respect. It is CERTAINLY among the greatest, whether for memes, social impact, popularity, scope, etc.
To the other point, no. I mean, one of the biggest issues with Boruto is that we know about 'that's already. There is a very small margin of the operant world we havent been exposed to, and quite frankly Kishimotos's temporary successors did it wrong.
So in a way I could say "I miss when no one knew everything about Naruto, because that would have made the later series better, both in writing and experience", but that would be a megalomaniacal self delusion of veritably unravelled proportions. Your second question is immaterial and contemptably irrelevant.
Are you here to talk about anime or insult me with every bad word you know for talking about anime?
Are you here to get your dick sucked because you're 'lol, so right about animaymays', or are you here to have an exchange of ideas? Your leading questions suggest that you feel they're incontrovertible, in spite of them being entirely subjective. Dont ask stupid questions.
Seems like you're here to suck your own dick and insult everyone who doesn't agree with you about le animoos.
You're welcome to abandon the defensive act and argue a position, but you'll need to do better than say 'what you dont like is bad' and then start sniveling when its soundly refuted
Keep the unwarranted hostility coming if you'd like, but you're not entitled to my respect or time.
So, you're NOT here to argue Naruto? Arent you OP?
Discussing Naruto can be fun. Arguing over Naruto can be fun. But what is more reductive than yelling "fuck you for everything you just said it's proof that you're dumb" no matter what I say? What's with the wannabe-bond villain chuuni language like "that would be a megalomaniacal self delusion of veritably unravelled(sic) proportions"? I'm not saying you have to express disagreements with me respectfully, everyone's welcome to express yourselves however you want. But I don't see the logic in acting that way. What does anyone get out of it? What is gained from the "To be fair you have to have a very high IQ to love everything about Naruto as it is" talk?
I think Naruto would have turned out better if it avoided the escalation spiral that turned the stealthy kung fu ninja show with occasional magic use into glowing men blasting each other with energy balls on the moon. The first arc was shockingly gritty and down to earth compared to where the story would go. Can any future villain matter if he lacks Uchiha eyes or Kaguya blood or something even more overpowered? I can't see a figure like Gato rising again.
I also think the setting of Dragon Ball had more potential in it before Toriyama got addicted to saying "This is the strongest guy", making Goku surpass him, and setting up new strongest guys. Roshi didn't have to be the world's strongest and Goku didn't have to surpass him. There didn't have to be fiveish tiers of deities and when the heroes went to space/started fighting people from space, Freeza didn't have to be the strongest in the universe besides Cell and Buu. When escalating things to the multiversal level, Tori didn't have to say there were only about 12 universes tops or introduce all of the strongest guys in all of them in a big tournament for universal survival only for most of them to turn out to be jokes and jobbers besides Jiren, the personification of modern Dragon Ball's dullness. A big brick wall for Goku to smash. The Pride Troopers were supposed to be superhero parodies so they say justice now and then until Jiren randomly says fuck justice, and the Magical Girl parodies were magical girl parodies so they said love a lot. Anyone remember when Tori wrote the Ginyu Force as a Power Rangers parody except the things they were mocked for (striking poses, leaving themselves open by talking for too long or charging up attacks, playing rock paper scissors to see who fights first) is stuff other characters in the show regularly do? I once heard a fan theory that said Jiren is a Buddha reference and that's why he meditates. Neat.
You are dumb. Your conclusions and misinterpretations of constructive criticism has proven that ad infinitum. When an overwhelming volume of evidence presents its self leading toward an inevitable conclusion and a person asserts this, you respond with gaslighting and misrepresent the entire exchange, as well as the concepts inherent. I dont know whether you lack the ability to grasp the content of the exchanges or whether you're deliberately attempting to skew the exchange in a light far less damning for yourself. Oh wait, I do know, it's a mix of both. But when presented with objective terms and evidence you cry "buzzwords!". When your position is soundly refuted, you screech about how you're being targeted.
Now, while I have no doubt that you have already hit the reply button and are halfway through a diatribe of projection, stonewalling, selective ignorance, and loads of delusional bullshit, let me tell you how to make your positions unassailable
Wrong: (insert series) is bad for the following reasons.
Correct: I didnt like (insert series) for these reasons
We've been over this before Nigel, your opinion on this is subjective, not objective. Just because you dont grasp/appreciate/recognize something as having quality doesnt make it so. You're just one dude who could stand to put a little less stock in your conclusions. Or, you could present them AS opinions, rather than trying to formulate them as though your opinion is unassailable.>Tl;dr The only way you can make your opinions objectively true is to acknowledge that they are only subjectively truehttps://youtu.be/EAN6LuiXKDA
While I know you are already spinning the message in a fallacious manner, 3:45 onward is specifically in line with what I am getting at. People are allowed to like things. Your dislike of those things doesnt make you right and them wrong. I could assail your interests all day long, and while that might be appreciable to those who likewise dont like things, it would be the same scenario.
WHEN you want to have an OBJECTIVE discussion about Naruto and the few ACTUAL retcons, I'll be happy to have that discussion. But, until then, going on tirades about how the thing you dont like is bad and anyone who disagrees is anything other than a person who disagrees is childish.
Someday, you'll be better than that. Or you won't; the choice is yours.
Wait, that's why you're mad?
I don't get why you're yelling "Speculative and worthless!" at me just for that, but alright.
I'll say subjective over and over if that calms you down.
I subjectively thought the setting of Naruto was a more interesting place when we didn't know what to expect and the Uchiha/Senju/Moon People families weren't OP demigods with what I subjectively consider to be shark-jumping powers.>But please, show some respect. It is CERTAINLY among the greatest, whether for memes, social impact, popularity, scope, etc.
Harry Potter is popular, that doesn't make it flawless. Fallout Equestria is popular, that doesn't make it good. The new Star Wars films made a fuckton of money, but that doesn't make them above criticism whether that's subobjective or obsubjective.
But there's something new I've been thinking about...
I also subjectively think the story would have been interesting if the Ninja Countries were more different from each other.
Every nation has a civilian ruler with a name I forget and their own Ninja Village with its own leader called a Hokage. Every nation teaches its ninjas the same stuff (except for the rare kids studying something unusual like puppets), and a similar culture, and every nation has the same ninja-mission system with the same ranks.
What fundamental differences are there between the nations besides where they are locatedd? Mist was "The Bloody Mist Village" for a while and had kids kill each other until Zabuza killed his whole class and ended the tradition, but that stuff goes away on its own by the time the Hokage Summit happens. Sand has long-range fighters and puppet guys, Tsunade gets the Leaf to teach one person per team medical jutsu, and the Raikage likes having a partner that can match his strength for a double lariat attack.
Don't you think the story would have been more interesting if the nations were very different from one another when it comes to how they are ruled and how they operate?